Israel – Rav Ovadya: Ashkenazim Still Prohibited to Eat Kitniyos (Legumes) on Pesach

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    Israel – The Kitniyos on Pesach issue is again in focus, after Rav Ovadya Yosef brought it up at his weekly shiur last motzei Shabbos.

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    Several Modern Orthodox rabbis affiliated with the Shilo Institute had issued a “psak halacha” two years ago claiming that the ban against Ashkenazim eating Kitniyos on Pesach is no longer in effect, since the ban’s reason was no longer relevant. As could be expected, many in the Modern Orthodox community rejoiced to be rid of the nuisance, while the chareidim ignored it as the latest Modern Orthodox aberration.

    At his weekly shiur, however, Rav Ovadya confirmed the ancient Ashkenazi ban. “This is not a chumrah but the law,” he said. He asserted that if a Sephardi rav was asked about Pesach laws by an Ashkenazi, he would have to tell him to keep his minhag and it is forbidden to be lenient.

    Concerning Sephardim, Rav Ovadya continued, “Whoever adopts such chumros, about him it is said ‘one who adds, detracts.’ Unfortunately, in our generation, it is as if we have two Torahs. There is the Torah of Rav Yosef Caro, which the Sephardim follow, and there is the Torah of the Rema, which the Ashkenazim follow.” He added, “The Ashkenazim have many more chumros than the Sephardim, and everyone has to follow whatever his community does.

    “If a person will come and ask me, ‘I have a chocolate bar and don’t know if it has kitniyos in it or not,” Rav Ovadya gave an example, “if he is a Sephardi, I would tell him, ‘Go ahead and eat it! So what if there is kitniyos? But if he is an Ashkenazi? No way. Kitniyos is a problem… Everyone has to keep his minhagim. People have been keeping this minhag for over 600 years. Those who kept it were great people. What, we should tell them to give up their minhagim?”

    Rav Ovadya explained how this Ashkenazi minhag came into being. In the old days, legumes, sugar etc. used to be packed in sacks that contained flour. Ashkenazim decided not to eat these items on Pesach out of the concern that some flour may have been mixed in which might leaven after coming into contact with water.

    “Today it’s no problem to get beans in a clean package that had no flour in it”, he said, so Sephardim can buy these items without a special Pesach hechsher, as long as it has a regular kosher hechsher. “You don’t have to buy sugar that is Kosher for Pesach. It’s enough if it is just plain kosher. There’s nothing there but sugar. Plain sugar is kosher l’mehadrin.”


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    72 Comments
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    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    How is it a chumra if the reason for it no longer exists?

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    pushet

    yoelyg
    yoelyg
    15 years ago

    two torah’s? what a shame all the big rabbunim in d past keep this cumrhe pls r’ ovadyh yosef stop be smarter?

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    The minhag of kitniyos by Ashkenazim prior to WWII also varied tremendously from town to town. Some included potatoes. Some used it in liquid form. Some did not include peanuts, etc. etc. After the war, Ashkenazim became one big mishmash with few remembering or knowing the minhag where they came from. Also, hechsheirim having to keep every minhag in mind had to be all inclusive.
    I recall a story (I don’t recall the exact details; maybe someone reading this will confirm it) I heard from someone at the OU some forty years ago. When asked why the OU at one point gave a hechsher to Rokeach on peanut oil for pesach, he answered that Rokeach had a letter from R’ Yitzchok Elchonon from when Rokeach was doing business in Europe before WWII allowing its use on Pesach.

    Milhouse
    Milhouse
    15 years ago

    The Shiloh Institute does not claim to have abolished the issur on kitniyot. All it says is that minhag Eretz Yisrael, as established by the majority of frum Jews in EY, is to eat kitniyot, so all residents of EY can and should adopt that minhag. ROY himself has taken a similar position, that Ashkenazim who come to live in EY are entitled to adopt the Mechaber’s position and begin eating kitniyot. So I don’t know what basis this article has for claiming that ROY rejects that position. All he’s saying is that for those who do not adopt a new minhag, and keep minhag Ashkenaz, kitniyot are assur on Pesach midin neder. That is completely uncontroversial.

    csb
    csb
    15 years ago

    Reply to #1 yoilish!! Do u have any idea what your talking about?

    Zoli
    Zoli
    15 years ago

    So, let me ask you a question,

    The jews haven’t eaten Oreos for hundreds of years, it has become a minhag not to eat oreo cookies, because they’re not kosher.

    So now Oreo comes along and gives there cookies a different recipe and are now kosher, do we not eat them because for a hundred years we had a minhag not to eat oreos? NO! There is no reason not to eat them, they are kosher. So because we haven’t eaten them we shouldn’t ever? No. That’s ridiculous.

    The same could be said about a non kosher restaurant becoming kosher.

    Another example is pregnant women wearing leather shoes- it used to be that pregnant women could wear leather shoes during shiva and on yom kippur, so she could be comfortable. But since nowadays we have very comfortable synthetic shoes, this halacha no longer applies. Your local rabbi will tell you to wear sneakers. So you see, halacha changes with the times- we are not Amish.

    The whole kitnios business is really ridiculous.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    “As could be expected, many in the Modern Orthodox community rejoiced to be rid of the nuisance, while the chareidim ignored it as the latest Modern Orthodox aberration. “

    What kind of shoddy journalism is this?? True Torah is never a nuisance. Sometimes a bit difficult but never a nuisance. How could you say this?? Shame on VIN’s reporters!!

    Kashrus Mashgiach
    Kashrus Mashgiach
    15 years ago

    Sugar needs a Hechsher these days. Sugar is heated to make into granules from liquid, and we discovered one year that the heating system shared the same steam as liquid glucose which was made from wheat! There is even sugar made from WHEAT! I saw it!! Don’t assume that what seems innocent is kosher. One needs to ask Rabbonim who are experts in kashrus and have knowledge of the the production too.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    Its interesting How Horav Ovadia looks at the Bais Yosef and Ramah as two SEPARATE and the Lubavitcher Rebbeh Zatza”l used to quote that the fact that the Ramah is printed in the Bais Yosef shows of the ultimate Sholem between sfardim and ashknazim

    VoiceOfReason
    VoiceOfReason
    15 years ago

    People, it’s only 8 days. Will anyone not be able to live 8 days without something?
    Pesach shopping has become ridiculous! Shopping carts are filled as if we are going back to the desert for another 40 years. Grow up, get a grip, don’t panic. 8 days of eating natural non-processed no preservative added foods might just be good for you!

    machmeres
    machmeres
    15 years ago

    If you want to eat kitniyos, I heard a rav explain that even if you are sfardi, you are only permitted to do so if you keep ALL the chumros the Sfardiim are supposed to keep, which I am not sure which but maybe like not eating fish on Pesach. You can’t just adopt one and not the other so Sfardiim beware. And ashkenazim, find out more before you go ahead with that rice. It is not so poshut. I think for one week can’t we manage??

    hawaiian
    hawaiian
    15 years ago

    nonsense chumerut !!!! oiy vai gebrachot ketneyoit!

    OJoe
    OJoe
    15 years ago

    I believe that Rav Moshe said that Peanuts were not included in the Gezerah (this should be obvious since there werent peanuts in Europe when the gezerah was adopted) but he says that if its your minhag to me machmir with peanuts that you should.

    Raphael Kaufman
    Raphael Kaufman
    15 years ago

    The problem arises in what actually constitutes kitnios. Kitnios is usually translated as “legumes”, meaning beans, but the word just refered to finely ground prduce that could be baked into bread that could be confused with bread from the chameishes haminim. That is why, for instance, nishtaneh works, no one can mistake corn oil for corn. the problem for me is that the inclusion or exclusion of items from the klal does not follow any rational system. Foods introduced after the issuance of the ban on kitnios aught not to be included. Potatos, which were introduced to Europe after the minhag was chal, are NOT kitnios (and a good thing to for all you non-gebrokt eaters) but corn, which was introduced to Europe at the same time, is assur, apparently because it’s name “corn” sound like the yiddish word for rye, “korn”, which is, of course, one of the chameishes haminim. My personal practise in this matter is to follow the custom of my family, but I do occasionally have to scratch my head.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    What about garlic. My great-grandfather z'”l (who came from Poland) never allowed garlic on Pesach. That was the general practice. Now everyone eats garlic. So because he and 100,000’s of yidden never ate garlic on pesach I have to deprive my self?

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    The Mishnah Berurah (453:6 & 464:5) cites three reasons for the minhag (a) kitnios is harvested and processed in the same manner as chametz, (b) it is ground into flour and baked just like chametz [so people may mistakenly believe that if they can eat kitnios, they can also eat chametz], © it may have chametz grains mixed into it . from ou.org

    yitzchok
    yitzchok
    15 years ago

    to #35 i like the way one makes such statement as “now everyone …” EG: garlic..please dont create your own facts and pss them onn..no, we dont know of anybody in our circles of useing garlig and i am talkinh about hundreds of thousands chassidim

    berel
    berel
    15 years ago

    to #51 the loshon is ‘minhug mevatel din’

    bigwheeel
    bigwheeel
    15 years ago

    …Our highest “Halachic” Organizations have ruled that the prohibition against eating pork is no longer valid, since the reason for its prohibition no longer exists. We here at the institution have taken upon ourselves the enormous task of rationalizing and reevaluating all the prohibitions and Positive commands of the Torah. It is a daunting task, but someone has to tackle it. Anyway. Here goes. The original reason why the Torah forbade us to eat pork was. When the Israelites wandered in the desert, they did not have proper cooking and refrigerating facilities. As we all know that pork carries the Trichinosis worm. And if not cooked properly it can make one ill. But today, where we have all the advantages of modern technology, the prohibition [probably] does not apply. I could really go on and on rationalizing most of the Torah and discarding what is no longer relevant in the eyes of our spiritual leaders. Oops. This is exactly what our brethren the Reformers have been doing for the past 150 years!!!

    p.s.: Hopefully everyone realizes that this post has been written to demonstrate what happens when we try to rationalize the Laws and customs of the Torah. The prohibition on [consuming] Kitniyos (for those of Ashkenazi heritage) is only a Minhag (custom) but, as Rabbi Ovadiya Yosef pointed out, the prohibition –which is centuries old– still applies!!!

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    All those eating kitniyot out there do you only eat glatt bet yosef and cholov yisroel? is your tuna only bishul yisroel? Those are some “musts” if you follow the Sfardi set of rules..

    duddy
    duddy
    15 years ago

    to #53 ‘reform bretheren’ are as much as our ‘chritsian brethern’ ‘achicha is only ‘bemitzvos’ .of course we have to work on kiruv but until he is choser there are halochos like not be mechallel shabbos,dring his yayin etc

    me
    me
    15 years ago

    After Dr. Tendler abolished metzitzah for the modern orthodox, he doesn’t want your mouth to go waste, so you might as well use it to eat kitniyas.

    AMR
    AMR
    15 years ago

    The ultimate question is if you are ashkenazi why are you even considering listening to Rav Ovadya – he does not apply to you or you had better start eating bet yosef shechita. one can not have it both ways.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    to #62 i dont care what reasoning you give al titosh toras imacho willoverride your ‘lomdes’ anytime.and when we say 100,000 chassidim tht means the wholy tzaddikim of our genration and yester year so you little midget are not worth the sand they walk , walked on…

    makoros halochoh
    makoros halochoh
    15 years ago

    The earlier Poskim mention that rice, buckwheat/kasha, millet, beans, lentils, peas, sesame seeds and mustard are included in the minhag (see Beis Yosef O.C. 453, Rema 453:1 & 464:1 and Mishnah Berurah 453:4, 7 & 11) and it is generally accepted that corn (see below), green beans, snow peas, sugar-snap peas, chickpeas, soybeans, sunflower and poppy seeds are also forbidden. On the other hand, potatoes (see below), coffee, tea, garlic, nuts, radishes and olives and not treated as kitnios (see Sha’arei Teshuvah 453:1, Chayei Adam 127:7 and others). Iggeros Moshe (O.C. III:63) assumes that peanuts are not kitnios but notes that some have a custom to be machmir. Some other examples of foods which are or aren’t kitnios will be noted below.

    Iggeros Moshe explains that the minhag to not eat kitnios developed differently than other minhagim and therefore rules that only foods which we know were specifically included in the minhag are forbidden. [See also Chok Yaakov 453:9 who makes a similar point]. With this he explains the generally accepted custom to not consider potatoes to be kitnios even though logically they should be, as follows: the minhag of kitnios can be dated back at least until Maharil, who died in 1427, and potatoes didn’t come to Europe until the 16th century, so potatoes were a “new” vegetable which wasn’t included in the minhag. This logic has also been suggested as a basis for permitting the consumption on Pesach of a grain called quinoa. The thinking is that since quinoa, which has only recently been introduced to the Northern Hemisphere from its native South America, was never considered kitnios, it remains permitted on Pesach even though logically it should be included in the minhag. While this logic is sound, it is noteworthy that quinoa is often packaged in plants that also package wheat and barley, and it is possible that those grains (i.e. chametz) could get mixed into the quinoa. Therefore, before using quinoa on Pesach, someone who knows how to distinguish between these grains should check the quinoa to ascertain that it doesn’t contain any wheat or barley. An important “exception” to the aforementioned rule that “new” vegetables aren’t included in the minhag, is corn/maize which Mishnah Berurah 453:4 and others rule is kitnios even though it was introduced to Europe after the minhag had already begun.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    13 years ago

    I am having trouble coming up with yontif meals using non-processed ingredients. I am also limited to not using dried spices/herbs as they are unavailable this year. I am new to this way of cooking, and could really use some recipes for chicken/meat dishes and side dishes too. Thank you.