Crown Heights, NY – Famed Posek Rabbi Menashe Klein: Messianic Group Within Chabad Are Apikorsim

    281

    Crown Heights, NY – Rabbi Menashe Klein, a U.S. halachic authority known for his strict rulings, has denounced the messianic group within Chabad in a new book.

    In his 17th volume of Mishne Halachos, Klein names people who believe the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem M. Schneerson, is still alive, as “Apikoras.”

    The spiritual leader of the Ungar community head of the Bais Shearim Yeshiva in Brooklyn, Klein knew the Rebbe before he assumed leadership of the Lubavitch movement.

    “This sect of crazies, which falsify the Torah and our sages’ words, to say the Moshiach is dead but is really alive… these are things against our holy Torah.”

    His sharp words are an answer to a messianic booklet, which is not identified by name.

    Klein continues to write: “Whoever can, should as soon as possible, silence and stop the proclamations after or before the prayers ‘Yechi… King Moshiach’ which is a disgrace to the Rebbe OBM.”

    He ended his attack with a plea: “My intentions are holy – not to destroy the big building the Rebbe OBM built for over 50 years.. may he be an advocate for us and for all the Jewish people, especially his students and Chasidim.”

    Follow VosIzNeias For Breaking News Updates




    281 COMMENTS

    1. What else is new? This is something everyone has know for the last 15 years! If only those in Chabad (minority or majority) would break with the messianic element, painful as it may be, it would prevent the rest of the Orthodox world (both Charedi and MO) from writing off the entire Chabad movement as messianic.

      • it’s not so easy to break away from the messianic sect. ppl. just tend to lump lubavitch/chabad as one group and don’t differentiate. and it’s difficult to kick out a whole group of ppl from 770. prob even illegal. ppl just have to realize that there is a tiny percentage of crazies in lubavitch who make all the noise. Like the mashal of the empty pushka that makes more noise than the full one.

      • Wether or not “Lubavitch Messianics” are right or wrong, the fact is we were always looked upon as such and ridiculed. This being true 40 years ago. His sichos were ripped and his prophecies mocked by these very people who are commenting here about his greatness.
        The Rebbe made many Horoas re bringing Moshiach closer. How many people commenting here are prepared to fulfill them so that his most pressing wish should actually be realized?.
        Emor meat vaase harbe
        Zeitz matzliach in brengt Moshiach

      • Wether or not “Lubavitch Messianics” are right or wrong, the fact is we were always looked upon as such and ridiculed. This being true 40 years ago. His sichos were ripped and his prophecies mocked by these very people who are commenting here about his greatness.
        The Rebbe made many Horoas re bringing Moshiach closer. How many people commenting here are prepared to fulfill them so that his most pressing wish should actually be realized?.
        Emor meat vaase harbe
        Zeitz matzliach in brengt Moshiach

    2. I agree. There is no halachic support for this opinion and they are damaging the rep. of “normal Lubavitchers” May the true Moshiach come soon!!!!!!!!!!!!

      • “Yechi ha’melech” “ve’hamalkah” !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Who cares its only a few thousand mesugoiem they are not representing the real lubavitch yiddishe people. Without chabad Jews wouldn’t have mikvehs and shules all over the world. To think of it this is what a Jew must do not like satmar and all the other chasidim or litvish. Do nothing besides fighting within and trying to overpower others. If u will say oh. Look at the chesed in satmar like no others. Guess what #1 lehavdil goyim give charity as well they have all kind of none for profit orgs. Big deal what does satmar sell besides jihadding their views on others. Satmar thinks when ha’shem gave the torah it was wrapped around with the words “SATMAR” in gold look at all the chasidim all of them are the same. And litvish are stamm ignorant tembelech with nothing besides knowing their last name. AND YES I’m A PROUD SELF HATING CHUSSID. Was born in a chassidisha family and probably they will bury me in a chassidisha cemetery. Not that I want nor care its all about power

    3. The Jews for J have long used the insistence of the Lubavitch Mesianics that either the Rebbe OBM did not really die or will be resurrected to be the Mashiach as a support of their contentions about J. They have stated openly words to the effect – what are the Jews always trying to dismiss their belief in J, his resurrection etc. when the ultra-Orthodox sect of Lubavitch are not saying much different.
      The Rebbe OBM did incredible work and was mashpiah on the Jewish world. But he passed on, and we hope he will be a meilitz yosher for klal Yisrael like other gedolim and kedoshim from the past.
      Even Rabbi Akiva thought that Bar Kochba was the mashiach until he died and he accepted Bar Kochba’s death. How much more so, our generation, who are so much smaller in all aspects than Rabbi Akiva must accept that people pass on, no matter how great they may be. It is a pity that the Lubavitch messianics carry on so, because they tarnish the Rebbe’s image and works

      • Did you ever read the Rambam? it says that Bar Kochvah was “Ne-he-rag” for you that would mean killed, the Rambam does not say “She-mays” or “Nis-ta-lek”.

        • The Rambam also says that to assume that one is the moshiach he must gather all the exiled Jews, Fight the milchamos Hashem, and build the Beis Hamikdosh b’mkomo- The Rebbe z”l himself considered the Rambam’s opinion binding in these matters.

          P.S. If you tell me that he fulfilled ANY of these requirements, especially to say that 770, R”L is the “Beis Rabbeinu sheb’bavel” and that’s what the Rambam meant, I think you may be potur min hamitzvos.

          P.P.S. The Rambam says neherag because that was what happened with Bar Kokhba.

          • all the requirements you mention are for “Moshiach Vadai”, but we Lubavitchers Believe the Rebbe is “Bechaskas Moshiach” were the Rebbe has ALL the requirements!
            Give a look at the Rambam.
            as for the “Bais Rabbeinu Shebebovel” the Rebbe himself said that about 770, not that Ch”v it is the Bais Hamikdosh from yerusholiyim, but that it is “Bais Rabbeinu SHEBEBOVEL”

            the Reason why Bar Kochba was disqualified from being Moshiach is becuase Neherag, had he not beed killed he would fall in to the category of “moshiach min hamaisim” as stated many times in the gemoro

            • But he also says that (Hilchos M’lachim pereq 11 halachah 4) that if he didn’t succeed OR if he was killed: “בידוע שאינו זה שהבטיחה עליו תורה”- please do your homework before you write unintelligent comments.

              Furthermore, the Rebbe was not a MELECH mibeis dovid, nor did he force ALL of klal yisroel to follow the Torah (nor close to most of them), nor was he lochem milchamos Hashem. Therefore, it is against the Rambam to claim that he is “B’chezkas Moshiach” as well.

            • YOU are the one writing unintelligent comments
              The rebbe is directly from dovid hamelech and is a nasi=melech
              What do you think shluchos is? it’s bringing yiddin to Torah and if you want to say all…where does it even say ALL jews???
              Your final point- the rebbe actually said that rabbanim should get together and make a psak din that we know who moshiach is and that he is bichezkas moshiach and later the rebbe said he is already moshiach vadai!! The Rebbe is a complete tzaddik! If the rebbe said these things they are absolutely emes!
              moshiach should take us out of galus NOW!! and HaShem should clarify all confusions!!!
              Bottom line:enough is enough- we all want moshiach…in fact the rambam lists in the thirteen ani maamins we must believe in the coming of moshiach and even if he delays(chas vsholom) we must still await his coming. So lets all just join hands and walk in unison to greet moshiach (and regardless of beliefs)
              MOSHIACH NOW!!!

            • You GUESS that the Rebbe is directly from Dovid Hamelech. You don’t know it for a fact.

              For all the dreying, he did NOT have the din of a melech. Had the Rebbetzin and Marc Gurary both survived the Rebbe, he would have had to give her chalitzah, just as the Lev Simcha did to the Beis Yisroel’s rebbetzin.

              Go learn the Rambam. Veyochof es KOL YISROEL lelech boh. He will FORCE (not just persuade) ALL ISRAEL to go in the Torah.

              The Rebbe never said he was moshiach at all, let alone moshiach vadai! And just because someone is a tzadik doesn’t mean everything they say is “absolutely emes”. A tzadik can be mistaken just like anyone else.

              Instead of joining hands and singing kumbaya, why don’t you sit down and learn, not “INYONEI ge’uloh umoshiach” but HILCHOS moshiach?

            • The Rebbe did not fulfill even the requirements for bechezkas moshiach. It was always wishful thinking and twisted pshetlach. The best you can say is that he might come back to life and THEN fulfill those requirements.

      • Are they really apikorsim? Read the following:

        Rav states:
        “If Moshiach will come from the living, it will be Rabeinu HaKadosh (i.e.Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi), if he comes from the dead, it will be Daniel (the Prophet)…”

        Sanhedrin 98:B

        Rashi restates Rav’s position as follows:
        “This means, that if Moshiach were to come from those who are living now, it will be Rabeinu HaKadosh…but if (Moshiach) is to come from those who have died already, it will be ‘Daniel Ish Chamudos’…”

        Rashi-“Ee Min Chaya, Hu Kegon-Rabainu HaKadosh” 98:B

        • That was not psak din. That Agadita was hyperbole by Rav in his praise of the Giants Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi, and Daniel Ishe Chamudos.

          And… again, we we all know, we do NOT paskin from Gemora.

          We paskin from the pikai dinim of the gedolim who lead us.

          ALL have unanimously ruled that the Lubavitcher Rebbe, no matter how big a tzadik he may have been, is not Moshiach.

          And, the “Yellow Flaggers” ARE causing the rest of Klall Yisroel to make fun of Chabad, and push us even further away than we are pulling ourselves.

          There is a major university today in the US which is now teaching in its comparative religion course, that Chabad is a breakaway religion from Judaism, which is the largest breakaway religion from Judaism since Paul’s followers in Rome built the XXXXtian Church.

          Is this what The Rebbe intended? Heck NO.

          Let’s all follow this tzadik’s words. Listen to Rabbi Menashe Klein. He is right.

        • True…but where does it say that it is going to be the Rebbe ZT”L..based on the above Rashi it is Daniel…also,where does it say that Daniel did not die and is still walking around……you guys are nuts, bordering on Avodah Zorah and a disgrace to Lubavitch and the Rebbe

          • Obviously, it doesn’t say it is going to be the Rebbe, zt’l. My point for posting this comment was to prove that it is not apikorsus to say that the Rebbe or any great tzaddik for that matter will come back to become Moshiach. If we believe in technias hameisim, it is not far-fetched by any means to say this. In addition, if we believe that everything in the Torah (written or oral) is emes, it is apikorsus to subtract or add from it. Therefore, believing that Moshiach could not come after techias hameisim is apikorsus. The answer is right there in Sanhedrin 98B.

    4. It is time people start to appreciate the great Gadol we were merited to have in this generation. Too bad petty politics Have kept Rav Menashe Klein away from the stage for too long. He is a genious in Psak and fears no one but God.

    5. Sadly, people tend to judge an entire movement by some of the more vocal lunatics within, neglecting the recognition of the Rebbe’s gadlus in being instrumental in bringing thousands back to Yiddishkeit (B”H Rabbi Klein does recognize him). We are not Lubovitchers but my husband davens in a Lubovitch shteibel because of it’s warmth and acceptance of all Jews. The rov of this shul refers to the Rebbe as the Rebbe ZT”L. Remember, the parts do not define the whole. Give Lubovitch a break already.

      • please read his words again
        he didn’t bash lubvitch, all he said were the ones that believe he’s moshiach, & that he’s still alive are apikorsim.
        he didn’t mention a thing about the greater lubavitcher community

    6. one of Rebbes in my yeshiva said if not apikorsim, but they are definitely Shotim & bunch of fools & ignorants who know nothing. very unfortunate…that lubavitchers with all their power can not quiet these people.

    7. I agree with the Rav 100% as do most Lubavitch Chassidim today.

      The moshiachistim are a disgrace to the Rebbe and should not be tolerated at all.

      The true Chabad Chassidim are the hard working Shluchim who are Moser Nefesh and give up on both their Gashmiyus and Ruchniyus in order to reach out and help another Jew. The vast majority of Shluchim do not say Yechi and would not in any way affiliate themselves with those that do.

      It is trully a shame that such a small but vocal group have being so destructive and tarnished the good name of Lubavitch.

      Wishing the Shluchim much success in continuing their holy work and that they succeed in their ultimate goal in bringing Moshiach (whoever he may be) now.

      • 100 % corect as u can tell i went ohile torah , a lubavitch school with no english
        90 % do not say the Rebba is alive , but the falshe velt wants to link us all 2gether
        and get us looking like fools becuse the chabad work is very strong and sucssefull
        ” dont let those that knock us bring us down ” moshiac now

      • You speak for the vast majority of Lubavitchers. Not all of us are crazy or embarrassing. Most of us just try to continue to carry out the directives of the Rebbe every single day & we wait for Moshiach to be revealed.

        I stopped reading at this point because I didn’t want to read any more anti-Chabad vitriolic hatred. if you hate us so much, don’t use us when it suits you.

      • “(whoever he may be)” You know who it is…..dont pretend you dont, you think by saying that you will be looked at as the “normal Lubavitcher”. You are just like them all…….and there is nothing wrong with that………be proud…..and confident!

      • In an effort to cover up his words this website as well as many others only wrote that “if you believe the Rebbe is alive then apikores” but were u to read the whole Teshuva he argues with the very premise that the Rebbe could be Moshiach and Moshiach could come min hamaysim

        • If that is so, then he is calling the Lubavitcher Rebbe an Apikorus, because that was his clear position in Likutei Sichos Vol 2, in the Hosofos for Yud Gimul Shvat. (That the previous Rebbe is Moshiach, and his death didn’t change that, because Techiyas Hameisim will happen for Tzaddikim first, so there could be Techiyas Hameisim of Tzaddikim, and then Mashiach could come from among them and bring about Techiyas Hameisim for the rest).

        • I haven’t seen it inside so I can’t say, but I do know one thing: a few years after the LR passed away, this same R Menashe Klein publicly proclaimed that the Meshichists are NOT apikorsim, and that it is PERMITTED to believe that the LR is still Moshiach. If the teshuva really says what you claim it does, how do you square that with his public statement to the contrary? Is he really “meshaneh halochos”, as his enemies call him?

          I also know that he’s on very good terms with many Lubavitchers INCLUDING MESHICHISTS. I don’t think that’s compatible with your claim that he considers them apikorsim.

          • I’ve now read the whole teshuva. He does attack the idea that the LR will be Moshiach, but he doesn’t call it apikorsus. The teshuvah is written in response to one of the Messianic pamphlets, and addresses the usual talking points one by one.

            For most of them he gives the standard refutations, but when he comes to the Abarbanel he can’t come up with a real refutation, and resorts to playing semantics. All he says about it is that OK, the Rebbe could come back to life and THEN be Moshiach, but he can’t be Moshiach now, because he hasn’t come back to life yet. That’s a distinction without a difference.

            In any case, there’s no question that he does disapprove of the Messianics, he calls for the Yechi…Melech Hamoshiach to stop, and he spends two pages calling on Lubavitchers to appoint a new rebbe, even if he can’t be more than a shadow of the last one.

      • No, he is not.

        And in fact in this teshuva he rips into the Meshichistn too. He doesn’t call them apikorsim, but he goes through their talking points and demolishes most of them (the only one he doesn’t really touch is the Abarbanel), and spends the last two pages calling for Lubavitch to appoint a new rebbe. Which isn’t going to happen.

    8. Anyone who visited 770 since the Rebbe passed away will agree. They are real apikorsim. Standing there and saying they see the Rebbe is coming down, he just started to daven etc. Let’s see the Rebbe should go Hagba. Those who call them Meshiguem, this is a 2009 political correct word for apikorsem.

    9. Rabbi Klein is one of the strongest Geonim and Poskim nowadays. He is also a very big Tzadik,he has lots of siyata dishmaya. Lubavitch at a whole are just a wonderfull asset to klal yisroel. Its a shame this small and vocal minority tarnishes the holy name of the Lubavitcher Rebbe zt”l. The Ungvarer Rebbe always stood up for what’s correct in halacha.

    10. the reason why jc was not moshiach has nothing to do with the fact that he died R”l whoever thinks so is an apikores.

      geuss what the concept of moshiach sounds R”L xristan,

      its high time that people start learning about the subject with earnst not just bubeh facts.

      my great uncle was the rosh yeshiva in chachmei lublin and he said that people have no clue about the subject and it wasnt thorogh ly dealt with as to keep away from the yushkeh beliefs, but i think that since today people yiden have access to the internet with all types of info about the goyishe beliefs we ought to get are facts streight and not say bogus dinim which have no place in torah,

      as for the l”r zt”l maybe he was or not but if they want to believe so, zol zein, i just think that they are not doing any good pr for themselvs.

      gershon from Montreal

    11. I suspect there are groups within Satmer and Belz who also believe the same thing about their rebbe but have the political sense not to say so publicly….if these misguided lubabvitch feel better thinking the rebbe will return and it energizes them to do even more mitzvot and give more tzadakah to hasten his return, who is Rav Klein to burst their bubble.

      • I follow your reasoning. So, if you believe that J is moshiach, it’s OK if it helps you do more mitzvos. Or, if you believe that your neighbor is Moshiach, that’s OK too as long as it helps you do Mitzvos. How about if you believe in Avodah Zora, but it helps you do Mitzvos, is that OK too?
        The fact that a belief, which is not correct, or as Rav Klein says, Apikorses, makes you do more Mitzvos does not excuse such a belief.

      • I doubt you are correct. But even if you are at least they keep it to themselves. The danger with these crazies is that this twisted belief gets spread by their outreach work.

      • WRONG… Dead wrong.

        I am a Satmar Chossid, a chossid of the late Satmar Rov, R. Yoilish, ZY’U.

        Sure, there were people who loved and were in so much awe of our Rebbe that we ‘wondered’ …. ‘can he be’ ….

        But, when he was nistalek, and left his earthly body behind, we buried those thoughts on the day of his kevura!
        Also, we and the other Chassidim of other great Rebbes, Zichronon L’Vrucha, may have “wondered’ if our/their Rebbe may be Moshiach Tzidkeini, but we all believed that it would be DISRESPECTFUL to our Rebbes to say to out loud while he is alive, and DAMAGING to his neshama to say so after his petira.

        My father, ZT”L asked my brother and me to not make any hepedim for him, nor allow anyone to. WHY? He said that when a person exaggerates, and makes statements about a person which are not true, it does the opposite of what we want. Instead of giving the neshama an “aliya” it does the opposite, C’V.

        So, we certainly would not make a Moshiach out of anyone whose neshama was nistalek…. if we cared about him. How dare we HURT his neshama by saying lies, or making false claims.

        When the real Moshiach is announced, we will all know. In the meanwhile, I knew the Lubavitcher Rebbe, ZT”L, and loved him (even though he was not my Rebbe), and I cry inside every time I hear people call him Moshiach. I believe it hurts his precious neshama.

        Guys, we do not hate Chabad. We have not hated Chabad. Those of us who sometimes disagree with some Chabad thing do not hate Chabad.

        • If you believe it hurts his precious neshoma? Why did he say that 770 (gematria) is Beis Moshiach? Why did he rial up the crowd (to sing stronger) when they sang Yechi in front of him? why did he say that moshiach is coming in our generation? Why did he say the Moshiach’s name is “Menachem”. Why did he say by saying “Yechi hamelech” it adds chayos to Moshiach. (if he is then he is shepping Nachas). Please do some more research.

    12. This Psak does not negate the belief that the Rebbe is Moshiach, it only states that the Rebbe is no longer alive!
      As we know Moshiach CAN come from the dead, as is stated many times in Gemoro.

        • Rav states:
          “If Moshiach will come from the living, it will be Rabeinu HaKadosh (i.e.Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi), if he comes from the dead, it will be Daniel (the Prophet)…”

          Sanhedrin 98:B

          Rashi restates Rav’s position as follows:
          “This means, that if Moshiach were to come from those who are living now, it will be Rabeinu HaKadosh…but if (Moshiach) is to come from those who have died already, it will be ‘Daniel Ish Chamudos’…”

          Rashi-“Ee Min Chaya, Hu Kegon-Rabainu HaKadosh” 98:B ”

          See also the Abarbanel, and MANY MANY others!

    13. “In his 17th volume of Mishne Halachos, Klein names people who believe the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem M. Schneerson, is still alive, as “Apikoras.” “

      I’m confused. Why would believing that R. Schneerson (or any other dead person) is alive make one an apikorus. At worst, it just makes him wrong.

      I know of people who believe that Elvis is still alive. They may be wrong, but I highly doubt they’re apikorsim.

      The Wolf

    14. as a lubavitcher, lets put things into order
      1. dovid melech yisroel chai vekayom
      2. yacov lo meas
      3. rav says “rabinue hakodeash”
      in the messichistim there are a few levels of crazy ones!
      Apikorsim? please whats next? if you go to touro college you are a goy?
      you wear a black hat you go straight to gan eden???
      what do you do when a nonlubavitcher knocks on your door for money??? u scream yechi at him? please everyone drink some tea or coffee and let live!

      • Smartypants, let’s NOT sip tea and pretend all is good. Let me educate you, if you say you are god you are an apikores, if you say jews can believe in jesus you are an apikores, and if you say that the dead man is mushiach you are an apikored AND and a fool

        • Wrong, A dead man can be moshiach. If you learnt the gemoro in sanhedrin with pirush Rashi you would not write what is clearly wrong. Also look in sdai Chemed and abarbenal. Hakodosh Boruch hu should send us Moshiach and take us out of Golus.

    15. Some people who are alive are dead (by not continuing torah and mitstvos), and some that are dead are more alive than those living.

      “Yakov lo mais” Rashe: …ma zaro bachaim af hu bachaim.

      Anyone know “Dovid Melech Yisroel Chai Vicayom?” Is Dovid alive? A: Yes, as long as we are.

      Horav Minashe Klien is arguing with a Ramban, if he means that Moshiach can’t come from the dead. Also the talmud points out that the many amorim held that thier rebbe was moshiach.

      Its OK to be jelous of someone regarding toraha and mitzvos if it makes you do more. Ze v’ze Devreay Elokim Chaim. Lets show more Ahavas Yisroel to stay “alive” and bring moshiach.

    16. In B’Reishis (Parshas VaYechi) 49:33, Rashi states: “Yaakov Avinu lo meis.” The Gemara claims that Yaakov Avinu did not die. Rashi says, “Chai l’olam” (He lives forever). Then he explains: “The Gemara asks a question: ‘But didn’t we see that he was eulogized? Didn’t we see that he was buried? Didn’t we see that he was embalmed?’ The Gemara answers, ‘Mikra hi – I just know what it says in the Torah.’” And he brings the verse from the Torah that teaches us that Yaakov Avinu lo meis. Rashi explains that it only appeared to them that he passed away. This is the principle found in reference to Yaakov; in reference to Moshe – “Moshe lo meis.” We find this in reference to Rabbeinu HaKodesh, where the Gemara says that every Friday night he would come back home to his family. The Gilyon HaShas on the Gemara itself says that he would come home and make Kiddush for his family, which means he had the power to be motzi them (to cause them to fulfill their obligation). Whenever the Rebbe would speak about the Previous Rebbe, he strongly said that this principle applies not only to Yaakov, but to every Nasi HaDor. In fact, Nasi is the roshei teivos [acronym for] “netzutzo shel Yaakov Avinu” (a spark of Yaakov Avinu). Whenever he spoke about the Frierdike (Previous) Rebbe, the Rebbe never said nishmaso Eden (his neshama is in Gan Eden) or zecher tzaddik livracha (the memory of a tzaddik is for a bracha), because he said [the Rebbe Rayatz] is here – he’s alive.

    17. As a Lubavitcher, I say, most of Chabad are absolutely disgusted with the Meshichistim. They have done allot of damage to the name Lubavitch and the Rebbe. There are currently court cases costing in the millions trying to eject these people from 770.

      But at the same time I must say that Chabad is criticized for many other things which have no basis in halacha (for eg. the bor al gabei bor mikvah issue — which I must point out in the long debate a few days back, NOT ONE person was able to explain in halachic terms why bor al gabei bor might be problematic. NOT ONE person was able to bring a posek on the level and generation of R’ Moshe Feinstein (who praised the chabad design) that says bor al gabei bor is posul. Ironically the Chazon Ish didn’t like the Hashoko mikvah design – which most side by side mikvos use. So in fact the standard side by side Hashoko mikvah is more problematic than the bor al gabei bor.) Yet, in many circles, this myth perpetuates. For some reason, the very fact Chabad is associated with a certain type of Mikvah is enough to shun it. And even to label it posul.

      This kneejerk resistance toward Chabad has caused many in Chabad to simply stop trying to accommodate the Litvish concerns.

      Most of the M’ camp excesses are a result of this attitude that the “’Litvish velts has always opposed Chabad in whatever we do; be it Teffilin, be it shabbos candles for girls, be it kiruv, be it lag b’omer parades. This is just the latest issue. Nothing we do is good enough for them. So it’s no point trying.”

      Unfortunately, most in Chabad (and especially the M’s) believe the Litvish velt has lost their credibility to criticize chabad.

      This is a situation of the boy who cried wolf, in that now when the M’s would do good to look at their actions, it gets shrugged off as “typical misnagdim – always against us for the last 200 years.

      But let’s not forget that these people are a minority and must, Bezras Hashem, be stopped.

      • Stop blaming politics.

        There are people, many people who think Chabad is wonderful, but are only against the meshichistim.

        They think of the Mikva al gabai Mikvah a Chabad thing, not a meshichist thing.

        They do not like the Mikvah al Gabai Mikvah on its own merits (and it does have merits, they just don’t overcome its negatives according to them).

        People in Chabad (and some others too) love to invalidate others’ opinions, by claming, “It’s Politics. They don’t like our Mikva because they hate Chabad.’

        That itself is a divisive, wrong remark.

        The next technique they use is to call anyone who disagrees with anything Chabad, and “Am Haaretz.” It seems only those whose opinions match Chabad can learn, all others are ignorant.

        Some of the things Chabad does are wonderful.

        Sure, there are those who disagree with some things. And, YES, Chabad can point to successes, which they claim jusitify the actions. Others disagree.

        Chabad wants them to respect Chabad.
        But, when was the last time Chabad respected other people’s opinions, without calling everyone an Am Haaretz?

        • The thing is, there are no negatives in the bor al gabei bor. In 100 years nobody has been able to come up with a single valid objection to it. Therefore those who still object to it are motivated by politics; it is perfectly true that the only reason they don’t like it is because they hate Chabad. There is no other reason possible. Unless, of course, one is an amhooretz. An amhooretz has the excuse that he can’t learn, so he doesn’t know that there are no valid arguments against bor al gabei bor, and he is simply trusting those whom he thinks are responsible talmidei chachomim, who tell him that there is some objection. Nu, what can he do, he’s an amhooretz. But someone who is not an amhooretz and tells people not to use a Chabad mikveh, is a hater; there is no other possibility.

          • Ah… another one.

            We all know the objections from past gedolim on the Mikvah al Gabei Mikvah of the Rebbe Rashab. It does have some great maalos, and according to Chabad/Lubavitch it is the best. And for you it IS the best for you to use.

            But, those well known objections came from other real gedolim.
            You are all very quick to answer their objections after they are gone, and call anyone who still has those same objections an Am HaAretz.

            The very act of calling other rabbonim who disagree with you Am HaAratzim is in itself Am Haaratzus.

            I also know the canned answer. You start off with putting all the objections to the one objection of the Divrey Chaim and claim that since there IS no katafras, that objection is invalid. You all do not even consider anyone else’s objections, nor give the objectors a chance to refute your answer to the Divrey Chaim. We all all Am HaAratzim….

            And, if we don’t want to your YOUR mikvah, we are called “haters” ….
            and, those rabbonim who still disagree are not “responsible talmidei chochomim. Only Chabad can be responsible talmidei chachomim.

            How sad for us all who are not Chabad…. Oy!

            • “I also know the canned answer. You start off with putting all the objections to the one objection of the Divrey Chaim and claim that since there IS no katafras, that objection is invalid. You all do not even consider anyone else’s objections, nor give the objectors a chance to refute your answer to the Divrey Chaim. We all all Am HaAratzim….”

              How can we “give the objectors a chance to refute your answer to the Divrey Chaim” if you haven’t provided an answer?????

              I keep reading “there are many Gedolim who don’t like the bor al gabei bor” yet fail to provide a single name other than the alleged Divrei Chaim.

              And most people on VIN debating the Mikvah issue are not familiar with the basic terms of hilchos mikvah; Hashoko and Zeria, Zochlin etc. I still waiting for someone to present a halachic analysis on the alleged problems of bor al gabei bor.

            • “We all know the objections from past gedolim on the Mikvah al Gabei Mikvah of the Rebbe Rashab”

              Typical.

              If said objections are so famous why can’t you provide us with a name. Preferably someone on the level (and generation) of R’ Moshe Feinstein (and many other Poskim), who unequivocally praised the bor al gabei bor design.

              You can’t. Because such said objections of Gedolim of the previous generation don’t exist.

            • we don’t have any objection if you want to use Hashaka or Zeriah. We believe Bor Al Gabei Bor is halachicly preferable but we don’t pasul you for having your opinion. however, you guys out there bash us for using Bor Al Gabei Bor and claim that it’s posul. You are the ones that are lacking tolerance for your fellow yidden. We in Lubavitch are not the ones lacking tolerance for our fellow yidden who don’t use Bor Al Gabei Bor.

              To prove it, I have never heard in Chabad people not want to do a shidduch with a Tsugekuminer to Chabad because his parents used a hashaka mikvah. However, there are people out there who think that Lubavitch are not keeping Taharas Hamishpacha properly because they use Bor Al Gabei Bor.

              Everyone is entitle to their own derech.

            • NO past gedolim had any objections to it. It’s all hateful lies. The Divrei Chayim did not object to it, and nor did any other real gedolim. The only objections came from amei ho’oretz and haters. If you disagree, why not tell us some of these so-called valid objections. You can’t because they don’t exist.

        • Sorry, you don’t know what your talking about. The divrei Chaim was talkin about a mikvah on two SEPERATE floors with a PIPE conneting the 2 boros which if its FLOWING then can be posul.

          But the bor al gabei bor of Chabad is NOT what the Divrei Chaim was talking about.

          The Gulot Aliyot (a major work on the Halachot of Mikva), section four, argues that the rule of Katafress Eino Chibbur applies only when the water is flowing on a slope and not when the two pools are stationary. Rav Shlomo Ganzfried (the author of the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch who wrote an authoritative work on Hilchot Mikvaot entitled Lechem Vesimlah) argues (Simlah 98) that Katafress Eino Chibbur does not apply when the two pools that are located one above the other are connected deliberately. The Pnai Yehoshua (in his commentary to Gittin 16a) argues that Katafress Eino Chibbur does not apply when the water that connects the two Mikvaot are from the Mikvaot themselves (as opposed to an external source). Teshuvos Chasam Sofer (Y.D.96) argues that this rule does not apply if there is abundant water that connects the two Mikvaot.

          Moreover, it seems that even the Divrei Chaim would accept the Lubavitch Mikva as they are commonly constructed. First, the Divrei Chaim writes (in his introduction to Hilchot Mikvaos number five) that we do not say Katafress Eino Chibbur when the water has had its status as Mayim Sheuvim mitigated to a Rabbinic level disqualification by the process of Hamshacha. In fact, the Rash in his commentary to the Mishna (Mikvaot 6:8) states that we do not say Katafress Eino Chibbur if the water is disqualified only on a Rabbinic level. Remeber, that the Hamshacha process is a standard feature of most Mikvaos today.
          Furthermore, when the two Mikvaos lie directly upon each other with only the separation of a floor, even the Divrei Chaim agrees that the Mikva is Kosher. This is because in this situation we do not have two Mikvaos that need to be connected. Rather, we regard the two pools conceptually as one large pool.

          Indeed, four major authorities on Hilchot Mikvaos accept this type of Mikva without qualification – Rav Meir Arik (Teshuvot Imrei Yosher 2:73), Rav Moshe Feinstein (Teshuvot Igrot Moshe Y.D. 3:65) the Satmar Rav (Teshuvot Divrei Yoel Y.D. 80), and Dayan Weisz (Teshuvot Minchat Yitzchak 2:92). In practice, Lubavitch Mikvaos are created in this manner.

        • That is a complete fabrication. The LR’s letter to the Helmitzer about this is published; he was shocked that the Helmitzer would perpetrate such a falsehood. The bor al gabei bor is fully compatible with the Divrei Chaim; Lubavitch hold very much of the Divrei Chayim and would not do something against his psak.

      • What R Belsky said was very different. He attacked all chassidus going back to the Baal Shem Tov, and he was quite properly vilified for it. He should be ashamed of himself. The other two rabbonim interviewed in that same article also attacked the Messianics, and you see that nobody vilified them; there’s a reason for that. They confined their remarks to the Messianics alone, and did not attack chassidic beliefs in general.

    18. מכתבו של הגאון האדיר הרב פנחס הירשפרונג

      י”ג אייר, כ”ח למטמוני”ם תשנ”ז לפ”ק

      הנני להגיד דעתי ברורה בזה (בלי להאריך בכל השקו”ט, שכבר שמעתי הענין לפרטיו, ואכ”מ להאריך):

      כל הדו”ד אודות השירה וההדפסה והענין ד”יחי אדמו”ר מלך המשיח לע”ו” וכל הכרוך בזה – אין בזה שום צל של שאלה בהלכה, ויש לזה מקורות בש”ס מפורש, בזהר, ומגדולי המקובלים עליהם אנו (כלל ישראל) סומכים גם להלכה למעשה. (לבד מזה שגם הרבי מליובאוויטש רב גוברי’ וכו’ – בבחי’ רב תנא הוא, ואם השתמש באותיות אלו בנוגע לחמיו זצ”ל, ומאות פעמים, זה לעצמו כבר יכול להיות מקור ובר סמכא).

      ועד”ז בנוגע לדרכי ההשפעה על אחב”י וכו’, הרי הרבי מליובאוויטש, וחסידי חב”ד עצמם כבר אתמחי גברא ואתמחי קמיע, ומי יודע יותר מהם איך הוא הגישה הנכונה לקרב אחב”י, ובאופן שרק זאת ולא אחרת וכו’.

      ורק נהרא נהרא ופשטי’.

      עפ”י הנ”ל נראה שכל המח’ באה רק בעצת היצר ר”ל, הרוצה דוקא לעשות קטיגוריא בין ת”ח. כנראה שלא מרגישים איזה צרה הנהגה כזאת תביא ר”ל בכרם ישראל, והבערה ללאו יצאת, וכי תצא אש גו’ שלם ישלם המבעיר את הבערה!

      מה אתם חושבים שליובאוויטש ישתקו, ובפרט בענין הנוגע לדררא דממונא, והרי ת”ח ממונם חביב עליהם יותר מגופם כו’, איזה חילול השם תגרום מחלוקת כזו. ואלו החושבים כולו רק לש”ש – מצד מה יאמרו הבריות – יחשבו בעיון א) איזה השפעה תעשה מחלוקת זו על אחב”י שעדיין לא התקרבו לתומ”צ. ב) ועוד יותר, כאשר יתגלה הכל ברבים – דעת מי יתקבל יותר – דעת ליובאוויטש, שעוסקים בכל קצוי תבל וארה”ב בכלל, בידידות רבה, והולכת וכובשת לבבות אחב”י, או דברי איזה ראש ישיבה (ואפי’ כמה מהם). והרי כאשר ידפיסו – ליובאוויטש – השורש על הנהגותיהם, איך שהיא מיוסדת על חז”ל בנגלה ובנסתר (ועל דברי הרבי עצמו), מה יועיל מה שאחד יגיד “דעת תורה” שלו עצמו.

      וברכנו אבינו כאשר כולנו כאחד דווקא. וה’ יברך את עמו בשלום.

    19. ז’ תמוז תשנ”ו:

      להלן מענה לשאלות הרבות אודות עמדתי בהנוגע לליובאוויטש ואמונתם המשיחית.

      לפני ג’ תמוז כללתי את עצמי בין אלה שהאמינו כי הרבי היה ראוי להיות המשיח. אני מאמין באופן מוחלט, כי לו היינו – במיוחד הקהיל האורטודוקסית – מאוחדים, היינו זוכים לגאולה השלימה.

      בקשר לאמונה של רבים מחסידי חב”ד (כולל רבנים מובהקים וראשי ישיבות) – אמונה המיוסדת על הצהרות דומות של הרבי בעצמו, בקשר לקודמו בתפקיד הרבי הקודם, כולל רבנים חשובים וראשי ישיבות, שהרבי יכול עדיין להיות משיח – לאור הגמרא בסנהדרין, הזוהר, האברבנאל, כתבי האריז”ל, השדי חמד ועוד מקורות – אני לא יכול לומר שהאמונה הזאת היא דבר שמחוץ לזרם האורתודוכסי.”

      “כל ניסיון ציני להשתמש בחילוקי דיעות איך לפרש בנושא זה, ולהשתמש בזה כדי להזיק לתנועת חב”ד שהייתה ועדיין ממשיכה להיות התנועה שעומדת בראש הלוחמים במיסיון ובהתבוללות, רק יכול להביא יותר לבעיות בקהילה היהודית, ובמיוחד בקהילה התורנית.

      על המחנה התורני לגייס את כל כוחותיו להתאחד, ברוח האמיתית של אהבת ישראל ולהילחם באויב האמיתי של ישראל. אני מוחה וקורא להפסיק כל תעמולה להכפיש את תנועת ליובאוויטש או כל זרם לגיטימי אחר בתוך יהדתו התורה

      עד כאן ממכתבו של הרב סולובייצ’יק.

      הרב העשל גרינברג שהיה מאחורי הקלעים מספר: הייתי רוצה לספר את הרקע למכתב, כיוון שכאשר אני מזכיר את העובדה שהרב סולובייצ’יק חתם על המכתב, אנשים אומרים לי שהם יודעים ממקורות מוסמכים שזה לא נכון, שהוא אף פעם לא כתב את זה, וזה זיוף, והם יודעים ממקורות מוסמכים שהוא היה תחת לחץ לכתוב את זה, ואחרי זה אני שומע עוד שאנשים אומרים שהם יודעים ממקורות מוסמכים שאחרי זה הוא חזר בו וביטל את המכתב. אם הוא לא כתב את זה -איך הוא ביטל את זה?…

      ובכן, אלו הן העובדות: אני הייתי בחדרו של הרב סולובייצ’יק יחד עם עוד שני רבנים שהיו עדים איך שהרב חותם על המכתב.

      המכתב עצמו לא נכתב אישית על ידי הרב סולובייצ’יק. הוא לא לקח עט וכתב את זה, כיוון שהוא היה משותק ומאוד היה קשה בשבילו לשבת ולכתוב. המכתב הזה הכיל תוכן מהרעיונות שהרב סולובייצ’יק אמר בעל פה לרב אלי טורין משיקגו, ואני עזרתי לנסח את המכתב שיכיל את כל הרעיונות של הרב סולובייציק בנושא הזה.

      הבאנו את המכתב לרב סולובייציק. הרב סולובייציק היה גדול בתורה. אף אחד לא יכול לדמיין לעצמו שאדם בדמותו היה נכנע לכתוב בשמו, דבר שהוא כפירה. אם מישהו מאמין לזה, הוא יכול להאמין כל דבר. זה עלבון גדול לאדם בדמותו של הרב סולובייציק זצ”ל אם יאמינו עליו כזה דבר.

      היה לנו דו-שיח מאוד מהנה. דיברנו אודות הנושא ברוח טובה, ואמרנו לרב סולובייציק שזה תוכן המכתב שהיינו מבקשים לפרסם כדי להפסיק את ההתקפות הבזויות הללו על חב”ד. האם הרב מוכן לחתום על זה. הרב סולובייציק עבר על המכתב מאוד בזהירות. קרא פעם ועוד פעם, ואחר כך אמר “אני אחתום על זה”, והוא אכן חתם על זה.

      המכתב פורסם בעיתון ג’ואיש פרעס, ולפני שהם פירסמו את זה, המערכת בעצמה צילצלה לרב סולובייציק לוודא שזאת אכן חתימתו על המכתב. הוא אישר את זה, ורק אז המערכת פירסמה את המכתב.

      מה שמדברים על ההבהרה שהוא פירסם שבוע אחר כך, שמשתמע ממנה כאילו הוא חזר בדבריו, זה היה כיוון שמישהו פירש את המכתב שלא לנכון. הרב סולובייציק לא חתם שהוא אומר שהרבי הוא משיח, אלא רק שזה דבר לגיטימי, שיש מקורות לגיטימיים לאמונה של אלו שמאמינים, ואף אחד לא יכול לבקר את זה או לגנות את זה. זה תוכן מכתבו השני של הרב סולובייצ’יק, שפורסם בגואיש פרעס שבוע אחר כך.

      אם האמת כדברי האומרים שהאמונה הזאת היא כפירה -איך הרב סולובייצ’יק יכול לומר שאסור לגנות את זה?אלה שהכירו את הרב אהרן סולובייצ’יק, ואני הכרתי אותו היטב, יודעים שמדובר באדם שלא חת לפרסם את דעתו ברבים, גם כאשר היא לא נעמה לחוגים מסויימים.

      היו לי הרבה הזדמנויות לדבר איתו ולשמוע את השקפותיו החזקות בעניני יהדות. הוא היה תקיף מאוד נגד הממשל הישראלי על כך שהם החזירו שטחים תמורת הסכמי השלום המזוייפים. לאידך, הוא תמך תמיכה מלאה בעניינים שלדעתו היו חשובים, למרות שלדעת רבים ביהדות ארצות הברית הם לא היו פופולריים.

      ובנושא הזה לא שמענו שום ביקורת ממנו. הדבר היחיד ששמענו ממנו, שזאת אמונה לגיטימית המיוסדת על מקורות היהדות, ואין בעייה להאמין היום שהרבי הוא מלך המשיח. לכן, כל מי שממשיך ללחום, לבקר ולגנות את חסידי חב”ד על אמונתם זו, הוא מכריז מלחמה גם נגד גדול בתורה בדמותו של הרב סולובייצ’יק.

          • Actually, I think it was his brother from Chicago, but that is not the whole story. He later said that that was not what he was told he was signing. He said that moshiach must come from the living and his sole intent was that Chabad should not be considered apikorsim. Whether that is true or not (that they’re not apikorsim)- ich veis nit

            • You’re lying. Read what was posted above, about the circumstances of the signing. He read it carefully several times and signed it.

      • This letter was forced upon R’ Ahron Solevechik ZT”L to sign. At the time he was aged and infirm (he passed away several years later), and was not totally conigtive. When he realized what he had signed, he retracted. I lived in Chicago at the time, and remember the issue. See David Berger’s book for the full story.

        • Not true. I personally spoke to a Rabbi who was there during the signing. He was not forced at all. Just the opposite. He was totally cognitive even though he was not well. To say otherwise is an insult to the Rav, and is showing a lack of respect for all elder Gedolei Torah.

            • You’ve seen R Hershel Greenberg’s testimony. He was THERE and saw what happened. Are you calling him a liar, based on a rumour you heard third-hand?

            • He has no credibility whatsoever on this issue! He is the biggest nogea bedovor! He is the one of the “leaders” and spokesman of the mashichist camp from it’s inception. Can you tell us the *name* of an independent person who was there and can attest to the veracity of Greenberg’s”testimony”?

            • Lohon Hora!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am not Lubavitch, but I know him personally. He is a man who is full of chesed and ahavas yisroel. He is responsible for bringing many yidden back to yiddishkeit. Plus, he is a big talmid chacham with a big heart.

              SHAME ON YOU!!!!!!

        • What a chutzpah. He was physically infirm but in full control of his mental faculties. Read the testimony of R Hershel Greenberg, that was posted above. The letter was drawn up according to the views R Aharon had expressed in conversation, then he read the letter carefully several times and said he would sign it. The Jewish Press checked with him before printing it and verified that he had signed it.

          Nor did he retract a word of it; the statement he put out the next week said exactly the same thing as the first one. It merely made clear that though it was perfectly OK to hold these beliefs he didn’t personally share them.

          Berger is a notorious liar and fabricator. He can’t stand the fact that R Aharon made this statement, so he decided to shame him publicly in this fashion.

    20. Although on the outside many Lubavitcher’s want us to believe they are of the “normal” ones. The fact remains, the Meshichistim are growing and have the main voice in Lubavitch to-date. One only has to look at the Birchas Hachamuh led by Rabbi Butman (Meshichistim General) just this year and other on-goings in 770 headquarters to see this plainly and daily as living proof. Where is the protests by “normal” Lubavitchers? The answer.. So many of the silent “normal” ones live with this on-goings fore deep in their hearts and minds they do ponder.. perhaps the Meshichistim are right. After all they too wish he would be!

    21. Just like evry religion there r some extremists. But never confuse Chabad with those kuku’s!
      Chabad was and is one of the prominent chasidush which are active in all maters of jiddishkeit.
      Thoso’s kuku’s r a discrase to Lubavitch and to the rebbe OBM”

    22. I dont want to mix in, but as a resident of chevron we know that the avot are sleeping and did not die.. “oreh yeshanei chevron” we say. Awake sleepers of chevron.

    23. to all of you who hate lubavitch you can take your learning your black hat and shove it and go to hell the basis of the torah is ahvas yisroel before anything if you dont have ahvas yisroelall your learning is worthless thats why the beis hamikdash got destroyed because of low lifes like you guys no difference chabad satmar etc you guys are disgrase to the world you learn shmiras haloshon and you slander people all you people are full of crap i as person who has no affiliation to lubavicth i can tell you ill my trips around the world they are amazing people start doing teshuva

      • Dovid you are a clown if you preach AHAVAS YISROEL and then talk about jews worse than the afro americans talk to each other.

        You’re a real joke

      • You may be correct. But believing in a “second coming” is a very non-Jewish theology. At the time of the second churban there were many sects among the Judeans. One of those sects believed in resurrection. That sect did wonderful outreach and had wonderful PR. An entire empire took on that belief and in turn cost the lives of millions of Jews.

        • Excuse me? Jews believe in resurrection. It’s an ikkar in emunah. And the Abarbanel clearly does allow for Moshiach to be from those who will rise from the dead, so you can’t rule it out. You don’t have to believe that it will happen, but you can’t be sure that it won’t, and you certainly can’t call people goyim for believing it.

          The problem with Xianity is NOT that they think J is Moshiach. If a frumme yid, who believes in all the ikkarim, happens to believe that J is Moshiach, he remains a kosher Jew and is doing nothing wrong. There are “Messianic Jews” who CLAIM that this is what they believe, but they’re lying; they are orthodox (with a small ‘o’) Protestants, who only pretend to believe in Yiddishkeit-plus-J-as-Moshiach, in order to entrap unsuspecting Jews. But lu yetzuyor that someone actually did believe as they claim to, then there would be no grounds to object to him. The early Xians, J’s own talmidim, were exactly like that, and Chazal DID accept them. The Prushim had no objection to Xianity until it was taken over by pagans and antisemites. So even if you want to compare the Lubavitch Messianics to the early Xians, that’s not a reason to reject them. You are not more expert than the Prushim on what is an acceptable hashkafa.

            • You obviously know nothing at all about Xianity. That’s a good thing, better you shouldn’t know, but since it’s so you shouldn’t comment on it.

          • Milhouse… so you are now an expert in Xianity?

            I personally know some “Messianic Jews” whom to me are 100$ Xians.

            But, they were born and raised Jewish, and were sucked into believing “also” in J.

            They observe Orthodox Judaism to the best of their ability. THey are not pretending anything. They really believe they are Jewish in every way. To them they are Jewish Plus… plus J.

            So, in your opinion, Milhouse, they are kosher Jews. ???????

            Sorry, they are NOT. They are Ovdai Avoda Zara.
            They can not be counted in a minyan. One may not say Amen to their brochos.

            The Meshichistim need to be very careful. Many of them are so close to the line…. that line….. a few of them may have crossed it. If you meet any of those… try to pull them back…. for the sake of their precious neshomos.

            • well if you are a chossid of the lubavitcher rebbe you’ve got to believe he’s moshiach since he told us that clearly…maybe not alive, but him being moshiach there is no question

            • No, he didn’t. Search as you might through the sichos and reshimos and tapes, you will not find anywhere a simple statement “I am Moshiach”. And you will find plenty indicating that he had no idea whether he was or wasn’t.

            • I’ll bet I’m more of an expert than you are.

              It’s possible that there are a handful of people out there who really are believing Orthodox Jews who happen also to believe that J was/is Moshiach. In fact I know of such a case about 20 years ago. R Bleich, who is certainly not a Lubavitcher, paskened that she was a kosher Jew. Obviously she could not be counted in a minyan! But one could certainly say amen after her brochos.

              From your description of your acquaintances it’s impossible to tell anything at all. The fact that you don’t say anything about their beliefs, and the very important differences between Judaism and Xianity, leads me to believe that you know nothing about the subject, and don’t even know what to ask them. I’d bet a fair amount that your acquaintances are orthodox Protestants, and therefore not at all Jewish in their beliefs, regardless of their Jewish parentage.

              However, I would not be so sure that they are ovdei avodah zarah. I will take an educated guess that they are Baptists, and it’s not clear to me what is the halachic status of that denomination. (I know approximately *what* they believe, I’m just not sure of the halacha.) Not all Xians are the same.

          • no,no,no,excuse me!if what you say is true,that chazal accepted yushka’s students, how could that possibly be the case now?once xianity morphed into a totally different religion,wouldn’t any type of belief in jc be avodah zora?comparing mishichistin to early xianity,that’s not a good thing OK.you don’t have to be any kind of chacham to get that.

            • You’re not making any sense. Believing that J was moshiach is no more wrong now than it was then. Chazal accepted it as an OK belief then; therefore it’s still an OK belief. An incredibly stupid one, perhaps, but permitted. What happened to Xianity since that time is irrelevant.

      • Who hates Lubavitch?

        If we hated Lubavitch, we would ignore you. It is because we DO like you, that we bother to correct you, or at least tell you where WE believe you are making a mistake.

        If my brother whom I love with all my heart, did things I did not like, I would call him on the carpet. He would not for a minute believe I hated him. He would listen.
        He may not agree with me, but he would never call me a hater. He would never think I did not mean well. He would never call me ignorant for not agreeing with him.

        He would not call me “Full of crap”

        Lubavitch IS wonderful.
        Lubavitch IS amazing.

        but….. Lubavitch is NOT perfect.
        Their biggest imperfections is their total unwillingness to have any respect for others’ opinions.
        Lubavitch need not FOLLOW others’ opinions, but at leat don’t trash the people who care enough to voice them.

        When you need to worry, is when they “Give up” and stop correcting. That is when you know they have written off Chabad.

      • Saying that something is against the Torah is not hating Lubavitch and is not “not having Ahavas Yisroel” and is not violating the laws of Shmiras HaLoshon.

        The meshichist and elohist beliefs are against the Torah, no matter what other good these people do. Their beliefs are not the proper Hashkafa and are Apikorsus.

        When you say,
        “Shove your black hat and go to hell. . . “Low-lifes like you guys, no difference Chabad, Satmar. . . You learn Shmiras HaLoshon and you slander people. . . All you people are full of crap. . .”

        Listen to what is coming out of YOUR mouth. Where is YOUR Ahavas Yisroel, and how are YOU keeping the laws of Shmiras HaLoshon, when YOU say things like this about people ? Why are you using Nivul Peh (dirty language, saying that people are full of crap) ? Why are you calling Chabad and Satmar, low-lifes? You must hate Chassidim. Is that Ahavas Yisroel? Is that Shmiras HaLoshon?

        In other words, YOU can say downright nasty things about people, but OTHER people can’t express their opinions.

    24. “Ain lonu e’la divrey ben almram”, we follow what the Rebbe told us. And to all those that criticize, all i can say is: Your starting with none other then the Rebbe himself!
      Al tig’u bimishicho, u’vinvi’ay al to’re’u!!!

      • Real chassidim do. Certainly the early chassidim did. Those who don’t demonstrate that either they are not real chasidim, or they don’t have a real rebbe nowadays. Ovad chosid min ho’oretz.

        • This so called “expert” Milhaus who claims to know everything, obviously does not know bupkis about chasidus or Belz; as a no=longer active member of the Belzer, I can tell you that we do NOT consider Rav Yissocher (Rokeach) to be Moishiach…while some believed back in Europe that his grandfather (called the “Wonder Rebbe”) might be Moishiach that was never a widespread belief. Bottom line: The Belz are not Moishichists, even though we have great love and respect for the rebbe.

          • Because your rebbe is not a rebbe. As you say, his grandfather was something else, and his real chassidim DID believe he would be Moshiach. And he wasn’t the only one. The early chassidic writings are full of this, about the Baal Shem Tov (even after his passing!), the Noam Elimelech, the Yismach Moshe, etc.

    25. Kudos to Rabbi Klein for saying the obvious, which is unfortunately not obvious today, with our generation’s utter confusion in so many areas of hashkafa.

      The Meshichists think the same as the rest of the Lubavitchers; the only difference is that they say what they think rather than keep quiet about it as the others do, because of fear of condemnation and contempt by other frum. That’s also why the Meshichists are tolerated in the movement, and in Israel, Kfar Chabad and other important positions in Chabad are headed by Meshichists. If the rest of the movement looked at them as an aberration, they would have had no trouble kicking them out of their group, as they did to other groups in their history.

      Let’s not forget some basic facts: The previous rebbe fostered the Messianic atmosphere around him throughout his entire career as rebbe, beginning with the very first maamor he gave when he turned rebbe in 1951. He had numerous opportunities to stop the messianic craze around him over 40 years, but to the contrary, he encouraged it. He was the one who told the chassidim to demand the revelation of Moshiach, which spurred the crazy petitions and demonstrations in the January 1993. The rebbe was too clever to openly call himself Moshiach, but he primed his chassidim so they would push his candidacy for Moshiach for him. To all those who deny it, answer this: who else arrogated for himself the appellation “Nasi Hador”? Who else talked constantly in terms of the upcoming Geula and his chassidus’ books constantly spoke about it? And why didn’t any other group in Klal Yisroel announce that their rebbe is the Moshiach as Lubavitch did, despite the chassidim feeling no less reverence for their rebbes? Anyone with half a brain cannot deny that the rebbe himself encouraged the craze.

      Just by way of illustration, in 1983, long before the division of the chassidim into Meshichistim and more sane chassidim, Lubavitch chassidim published (the Hebrew-language) “The Anthology of Torah Novellae concerning the Meshiach King” to determine how the Meshiach King will be revealed, and particularly who the Meshiach king is.. The editor writes in the introduction that although in the past they wrote little about this topic, they feel there is greater need for it now “since we’re already on the verge of the Redemption.”

      In the introduction: “This anthology was published on the occasion of the 80th birthday of the rebbe — the Meshiach king. May Hashem make this year, 1983, the revelation of the Meshiach, and may the one who stands in the breach break the walls of the Exile with the onset of the true, complete Redemption – NOW!”

      The first essay: “… throughout the generations, there was no righteous or great man who determined when Moshiach would come. Even those who calculated the final times only spoke about times that were auspicious for Meshiach’s revelation. But in our generation, we have heard clear and absolute things concerning the time of redemption and the coming of the Meshiach.

      “The period began with the announcement of the rebbe shlita as soon as he accepted the leadership on 10 Shvat 5711 (January 17, 1951), that our generation was the seventh generation of Chabad rebbes, and it is the generation of Redemption. This determination was not conditional, and it was clearly established that Meshiach will come in this generation… as was widely explained in [the rebbe’s] many discourses said over the years.”

      \”The most recent period began — according to the author — when the rebbe announced in 1980 ‘Meshiach Now!’ He explains, ‘The concept of “now” in daily life is different from the concept in relation to the waiting of generations. Nevertheless, “now” in relation to the many generations means a maximum of 2-3 years, since “now” must occur in our generation, the generation of redemption….’

      The Lubavitchers are to be pitied for the dilemma they are in. If they deny the rebbe is Moshiach, then they are admitting that the Moshiach status which he pushed for decades was a lie and he was a charlatan. But if they claim he is Moshiach, then they know they run afoul of Judaism — despite all their twisting and turning to find an acceptable theological argument that will allow him to be Moshiach.

      My 11 year old daughter was sitting on the steps with some neighborhood friends, including the 9-year old daughter of a local Lubavitcher rabbi. She asked the daughter if they believe the rebbe is Moshiach. The daughter looked confused, then she said that they believe he’s Moshiach but her parents told her not to say it. That’s the reality for the entire Lubavtich movement.

      Rabbi Klein unfairly blames the loyal chassidim for doing what their rebbe had encouraged them to do. If there is anyone to blame for this state of affairs, it is the rebbe.

      • The Brisker Rov commented on a sicha that he had seen “der mentch tracht az eir is Moshiach”. This is apparently the tradition within Lubavitch.

        Rabbi Hirschprung’s z”l comments need to be understood in the context of the fact that he was a Lubavitcher.

        • Rav Hirschprung was absolutely not a Lubavitcher. However, after traveling the world and testing the supposed Gedolei Hador – the only one who was able to impress him was the Rebbe. To the point that he made a number of trips to CH from Montreal just to sit at the Rebbes side.

        • This is certainly not a tradition in Lubavitch. In Lubavitch there are no stories about him at all; he’s not mentioned. He didn’t like Lubavitchers and Lubavitchers returned the compliment. In Lubavitch the only Brisker Rov who’s mentioned much is R Chayim, who had respect for Lubavitch and enjoyed their respect in return.

          What difference does it make whether R Hirschprung was a Lubavitcher? Was he or was he not a world-class posek? You must admit that he was. And he paskened that “there is no shadow of a question in halacha” about the permissibility of the meshichist beliefs. They have enough sources to rely on that they’re entitled to their position, even if he himself did not share it. You saw the psak for yourself. So what more have you to say?

          • WRT to Rav Hirshprung. This”pssak” was at his late of his life. He did NOT write this “pssak”. He was given to sign it! When they toldhim that he is signing a letter to stop the withholdongof money to OholeyTorah for mashiachist views. It is a disgrace how the used andmanipulated an old man for their mischievous and false religion!

            • I have high regard for him! I do not have high regard the people who manipulated an old man! Maybe the showed him part of the “pssak” and they edited the rest. I know for a fact that lots of things written in that letter he did NOT subscribe to!

            • Face it, he wouldn’t have signed something that he didn’t read. And he had enough people coming to him that someone surely showed him the published version; if it had been edited he would have issued a second statement. When R Aharon Soloveichik’s first statement was misrepresented he issued a second statement to clarify it; it said exactly the same as the first statement, but explicitly ruled out what the first statement did NOT say. R Hirschprung could have done the same if he was misrepresented; he didn’t because he wasn’t.

            • You can say what you want; he told *me* that he was misrepresented! While i am not able to prove you, i”m convinced (by talking to *him* all those times) that he did not subscribe to thatletter. (bichlal thetone of that letter was not his type of writing to aynone who knew him).

    26. It is a bout time that a GAdol has spoken out against these Menim. These crazies are disgracing the wonderful work of Chabad and making it difficult for the Mishluchim who are doing the real work of the Rebbe Z”TL.

    27. The Lubavitcher Rebbe ZT”L passed away, years ago. He is dead.

      The meshichists are saying that he is alive. “Yechi Adonaynu Moraynu V’Rabaynu Melech HaMoshiach L’Olam Va’ed.”

      The meshichists and elohists (who believe that the L”R is “elokus b’lvush gashmi” (godliness in a physical body), and which the Yoshka believers also use against us) are spreading a false Hashkafa.

      In order to be a properly-Torah-observant Jew, one must have a proper Hashkafa, as well as a knowledge of Halacha.

      If anyone disagrees with them, Chabad said it’s because they’re Litvish. It has nothing to do with whether one is Litvish or whether one is from a Chassidic group other than Lubavitch. The L”R was not Moshiach. We have not been redeemed from Golus. Also, the L”R is dead. He is not alive.

        • That depends on what you mean by this made-up term. There is nobody in the world who identifies with that term; it’s a label people put on others, and they’re never very clear what they mean by it.

          • There is no ambiguity in the statement of atzmius melubush beguf. This is a Lubavitch restatement of the trinity. The simple meaning of this is the anthropomorphism or embodiment in a human body which is absolute apikorsus.

            You can dance around and say that deep Chassidus answers this, but I’ll believe it when I see it.

            I also saw a cd where a spokesman from Lubavitch was advocating this point of view to an asifa.

            • There is no ambiguity in the halacha that kol hamevazeh talmid chochom is an apikores, and ein lo chelek. You do not have to agree with the statement in question but since the Rebbe did say it you have no right to call it apikorsus; the very act of calling it that IS apikorsus. Please see the very teshuvah of R Menashe Klein that we are discussing. He starts out with this halacha.

              The Rebbe himself is a bar samcha, enough to support any statement that he made. The problem is finding support for statements that he DIDN’T make, such as that he was Moshiach.

      • 1. “Yechi…” doesn’t mean he’s alive. The ones who say he’s not alive, and that’s OK because Moshiach can come from the dead, still say Yechi. And even antis say “Yechi hamelech”; the objection is not to the reisha (“yechi”) but to the seifa (“melech hamoshiach”). The Rebbe himself clearly said that it’s appropriate to say “yechi”; but he didn’t endorse the whole slogan.

        2. If you object to the idea that a rebbe is “atzmus umehus vi er is araingeton in a guf”, then you’ve got a big problem, because the Rebbe himself said that. To understand it you need to learn a lot of chassidus, but you have no right to condemn it or to call it “a false hashkafa” and incompatible with “being a properly-Torah-observant Jew”. Surely you will agree that the LR himself was a “properly-Torah-observant Jew” with a “proper Hashkafa”, and yet this is what he believed. Lo oleinu telunoseichem…

            • Ah… another example. If you are not learned in “Chabad Chassidus” (the only version you all call Toras HaChassidus) your opinions is 100% irrelevant.

              Thank you, Yossi, for proving our point.

          • I don’t care what it sounds like to you, the fact is that the Rebbe said it. Therefore you have no choice but to accept that it is NOT kefirah. Otherwise you find yourself in a very sticky place: “be careful of their coal that you not be burned, for their bite is that of a fox, and their sting is that of a scorpion, and their hiss is that of a snake, and all their words are like fiery coals.”

        • So just because the Rebbe himself said something, makes it true?

          “Yechi…” doesn’t mean he’s alive.”

          “Yechi Adonaynu Moraynu V’Rabaynu Melech HaMoshiach L’Olam VaEd,” means, “May our master, teacher, and rabbi, King Moshiach, live forever.” How can he live forever if he’s dead?

          Korach and the 250 members of the Sanhedrin, Yeravam ben Nevat, Shabesai Tzvi, Achitophel, and Doeg HaEdomi were all Talmiday Chachamim, but they all had a false Hashkafa.

          “If you object to the idea that a rebbe is “atzmus umehus vi er is araingeton in a guf”, then you’ve got a big problem, because the Rebbe himself said that. To understand it you need to learn a lot of chassidus, but you have no right to condemn it or to call it “a false hashkafa” and incompatible with “being a properly-Torah-observant Jew”. “

          What does this have to do with Chassidus? Does any other Chassidic group besides Lubavitch say that their Rebbe is Moshiach or worship a dead Rebbe? No.

          • You wrote: So just because the Rebbe himself said something, makes it true?

            My response: Not necessarily, but it does make it acceptable to say. If you accuse the Rebbe of saying or believing something that is outside Judaism, then, as R Menashe Klein wrote in the teshuvah which is the subject of this thread, YOU are the apikores.

            ******
            I wrote: “Yechi…” doesn’t mean he’s alive.”

            You wrote: “Yechi Adonaynu Moraynu V’Rabaynu Melech HaMoshiach L’Olam VaEd,” means, “May our master, teacher, and rabbi, King Moshiach, live forever.” How can he live forever if he’s dead?

            My response: Have you heard of techiyas hameisim?

            *****
            You wrote: Korach and the 250 members of the Sanhedrin, Yeravam ben Nevat, Shabesai Tzvi, Achitophel, and Doeg HaEdomi were all Talmiday Chachamim, but they all had a false Hashkafa.

            My response: If you are comparing the Rebbe to these people, then you are automatically an apikores. R Klein denounces the meshichists and calls them apikorsim for bringing the Rebbe into disrepute; kal vochomer you, who openly insult him! If that was your intent you need to do immediate teshuvah, and until then should keep away from frum web sites, because you are worse than a mechalel shabbos. If it was not your intent, then what did you mean by it?

            ******

            You wrote: What does this have to do with Chassidus? Does any other Chassidic group besides Lubavitch say that their Rebbe is Moshiach or worship a dead Rebbe? No.

            My response: Yes, as a matter of fact many chassidim said their rebbes were Moshiach. There were even misnagdim who said the same of the GRO. If it hasn’t been seen in the past 50 years or so, maybe those chasidim knew that their rebbes weren’t shayach to it. Why should that affect those who merited to have a rebbe who WAS shayach to it, as R Aharon Soloveichik explicitly said?

            • “You wrote: Korach and the 250 members of the Sanhedrin, Yeravam ben Nevat, Shabesai Tzvi, Achitophel, and Doeg HaEdomi were all Talmiday Chachamim, but they all had a false Hashkafa.

              My response: If you are comparing the Rebbe to these people, then you are automatically an apikores. R Klein denounces the meshichists and calls them apikorsim for bringing the Rebbe into disrepute; kal vochomer you, who openly insult him! If that was your intent you need to do immediate teshuvah, and until then should keep away from frum web sites, because you are worse than a mechalel shabbos. If it was not your intent, then what did you mean by it?”

              I’m saying that if these people in history could make a mistake, so can the meshichists.

              Also, exactly which other Chassidic groups said that their Rebbe is Moshiach, and do they go around saying the “Yechi” about their Rebbe? Do the Misnagdim go around saying the “Yechi” about the GRA, ZT”L?

            • But you were not talking about the meshichists. You were talking about the Rebbe. Comparing him to those people is mevazeh talmid chochom, and therefore apikorsus.

              Which part of “Yechi” are you complaining about? The first part is completely unobjectionable. The second part is what we’re talking about, which identifies him as Moshiach. I’ve already told you there were many chassidim who said so about their rebbes, and even misnagdim who said it about the GRO. But no, they did not go about shouting it from the rooftops and rubbing it in everyone’s face. They did not drive everyone crazy saying it and singing it nonstop. And they didn’t insist that everyone must say it too, as if nobody was allowed to disagree with them.

              Were you expecting an argument from me about that? If you expected me to defend the meshichists’ beliefs, rather than their right to hold those beliefs, you clearly haven’t been paying attention.

            • “‘ve already told you there were many chassidim who said so about their rebbes, and even misnagdim who said it about the GRO. “.

              NONE of them said so after their passing!

    28. Lets stop worrying who is Moshiach.- Hashem will send the real Moshiach that Hashem will choose (no-one else) as soon as we are worthy of it.

      All these signs propoganda flags badges etc. is an American invention that suits coca cola better than the holy inyan of MOSHIACH!

    29. you are all missing the bigger picture. this is a power struggle for control of chabads vast network and b-h the ‘mishichistim’ are losing. this has nothing to do with moshiach. I am amazed that people both in & out haven’t figured this out yet.

    30. Yech Hamelech I am a moshichist. The rebbi is hamelech hamoshiach, everyone has a right to belive or not to belive. I dont show animosity toward my fellow anti moshiach lubaves, and I dont need any recognition from anyone..ITS MY LIFE AND I WILL DO WITH IT WHAT I WANT

    31. From an encoutner with the Rebbe and Rabbi Klien:

      הרבי: שמו הולך לפניו – “שונה הלכות”…
      הר”מ קליין: אם באמת שמי הולך כו’ – ברצוני שהרבי יפעל שמשיח יבוא!

      הרבי: אני הרי צועק ללא הרף אודות ביאת המשיח.
      הר”מ קליין: אבל רצוני שהרבי יפעל זאת!.. המצב דחוף ביותר… כעת צריכים רק שהרבי ינהיג את כולם לקראת משיח צדקנו.

      הרבי: תפסקו כך ב”שונה הלכות”.
      הר”מ קליין: נו, אפסוק כן גם להלכה…

      הרבי: וגם לפרסם בדפוס, הוראה לרבים

      • I once saw a letter which was claimed to be from Rav Moshe z”l to the Rebbe where Rav Moshe said the Rebbe should live forever.

        This letter is obviously false and forgery.

        All of these letters need to be vetted. The meshichists will invent letters to prove their point.

          • Rav Moshe wouldn’t say such a ridiculous and outlandish thing.

            All of Klal yisroel says ad meyah v’esrim. No one ever says forever especially since the gemara says that everyone will die before techiyas hamaisim.

    32. I think it’s time for us all to learn the concepts and halochos of Moshiach so that we can draw some sort of educated conclusion.

      Although I am not a fan of all chasidim in general including Lubavitch/ Satmar/ Belz/etc. being that my family tree goes back to Vilna and we are current talmidim of Ponovezh, It’s obvious to me that the majority of posters on this site have no clue of what they are talking about being that they have never once in their lives learnt Hilchos Beis Habchiro.

      Pre conceived notions about Chasidim or chabad or moshiach will not help you draw an honest conclusion.

      I have spent 6 months in a small Lakewood Kollel researching this very subject together with my Chavrusa and I must tell you that the average Frum/Yeshivish/Litvish guy has no clue about the subject matter.

      To make a long story short we have come to the conclusion that the Lubavitcher Rebbe could still be Moshiach.

      We have not delved into the subject of Lo Meis like we see by Yaacov Avinu or Moshe Rabbeinu. We were strictly focusing on the Moshiach issue.

      P.S. When the Rambam says Neherag he is making a clear distinction between the Amoroim in Sanhedrin Daf Tzadik Ches who are of the opinion that Moshiach could be from those who passed on and Bar Kochva who was killed.

      • What evidence is there that he is ben achar ben from Dovid hamelech?

        I can’t believe that someone that had no children could me Moshiach which would imply that Bais Dovid died out since there is no ben achar ben.

        • 1. There isn’t any. Nor is there likely to be such evidence for ANYONE who arises as Moshiach, until Eliyohu comes and tells us. If someone does all the things that Moshiach is supposed to do, and we don’t know for a fact that he’s NOT from beis Dovid, then we can assume that he is, unless Eliyohu tells us otherwise.

          2. That makes no sense at all. He may well have been ben achar ben from Dovid, but undoubtedly there are many others.

          • It makes no sense that the line of melucha would terminate with melech Hamoshiach. It is certainly possible that there are other ben achar bens but to say that the main one in the line of Melochim is broken is ridiculous.

            • That’s not a proof. It’s your own aesthetic sense of what “feels” right; that’s not how we decide halochos. It’s entirely possible that Moshiach should come, die without issue, and be succeeded by another relative. It’s also possible that after he comes he can remarry and have children.

              None of this means that the Rebbe WILL be Moshiach; it just means you can’t rule it out for this reason.

          • the Rebbe is Ben Acher Baen from the Maharal, who had a Myuchas Ben Acher Ben from Dovid!
            it really is simple if you just look for answers!

            • You can say it all you like, but you are not a novi, and there is no other way for you to know either of these things. Neither one is written anywhere, and there is no evidence for them. Repeating them many times doesn’t make them any truer.

            • Wrong.

              The Alter Rebbe is ben acher ben to the Maharal. But the Rebbe is NOT ben acher ben to the Alter Rebbe. And we don’t know wheather he is ben acher ben to the Maharal. Nor is there solid proof that the Maharal is ben acher ben to dovid.

              What we do know is that the great great grandfather of the Maharal had on his kever “meyuchos mibeis dovid”. But that is not solid proof.

            • I am surprised this took so long to emerge. The Rebbe is ben acher ben to Reb Shalom Shachna who had a lineage back to the Maharal

            • All these pshetlach and dreidlach won’t help you. Words have meanings. Melech means a king. The minimum definition of a king is that his coinage circulates, and he rules over his people and has the power of life and death. Bar Kochva was a real king, in all respects. The Rebbe was not.

              Kefiyah means compulsion. In all the cases you cite, it means compulsion. Sometimes a person is compelled with a weapon and sometimes by some other power, but it does NOT mean persuasion.

              Your hypo is impossible, because to build the BHMK he will need political power. I expect him to overthrow the current political system in EY and establish his own constitution, but if he comes to power through the current system I will accept that. But for him to do these things without being any kind of king is impossible. And the Rebbe did not even begin the list. Only by playing word games can you argue that he did. But it’s possible that he will return and start working on it. I don’t expect that to happen, but I can’t rule it out.

      • I have not seen one person respond to what “Litvaker” wrote. He sounds genuine. Reb Litvaker, please share more of your research. You sound objective and level headed.

      • I have not seen one person respond to what “Litvaker” wrote. He sounds genuine. Reb Litvaker, please share more of your research. You sound objective and level headed.

      • Here is what is sad about this whole discussion: most people reading and posting here would agree that we live in very unsettling times. Anywhere you look things are unraveling. The message of the Rebbe in 1991-1992 was not whether he was Moshiach or not. It WAS that the time of Moshiach which KLAL YISROEL has been hoping for for so long is finally at hand, and we need to prepare ourselves (with an Avoda Pnimis – to improve ourselves spiritually) for this.

        Chevra, we are all in the same boat. The Rebbe gave this message, whether you believe it was Nevuah, or that you simply value the words of a Tzadik, you will take it seriously. This message was for US, for OUR benefit, so that we should not be caught unawares, “in our pajamas,” so to speak.

        Sadly, at such a crucial time, this crucial message has been displaced by a noisy debate on whether the Rebbe is the Moshiach.

        Prepare yourself for Moshiach and get ready to go of Golus. Getting ready doesn’t require packing a suitcase, it means most importantly preparing yourself b’ruchniyus. Hayom Lasosam, ulemochor lekabel s’chorom. Learn Torah Lishmo, practice true ahavas yisroel, refine you midos in a TRUE way, engage in Gemilas Chasadim without selfish motives, tear down every wall of Sina & Kina.

        Is everyone here only interested in endless debate, or are there some here who want to comment and relate to the divrei emes written in this post?

    33. Rav menashe Klein agrees with the Gemoroh and abarbanel that Moshiach can come from the dead. his only objection in the beginning is against those who say a dead Tzadik is alive.

      Besides the fact that the Rebbe disagreed with him on this point most of what Rabbi Klein says goes against what ALL chassidim believe in.

      Going to the Ohel, your own Rebbe has the potential to be Moshiach and many other things.

      Rabbi Klein also understands the Rambam as the last word on what will happen when Moshiach comes which is clearly against what ALL Chabad Rebbes understood.

      Dehainu, we follow the RambaN and not the RambaM uchedoimeh

      But thanks should go to Rabbi Klein for reaffirming the belief of a Jew that Moshiach come from someone who already pased away.

    34. Why The Lubavitche Rebbe is not Mashiach
      From the writings of the Rambam

      1) Mashiach must to be a Navi (there is only nevuah in eretz Yisrael- the rebbe never was there). He has to be greater a navi than Avraham Avinu and less of a navi than Moshe Rabeinu.
      2) Depends on results- Rabbi Akiva thought Bar Kochva was mashiach, but when he died he realized that he was not mashiach, so he moved on.
      3) Mashiach will reign like a king and then die, and then his son will take over, and then his son, just like malchus beis david. The rebbe had no sons or daughters.
      4) Mashiach must be a decendent from Malchus beis David paternally. The rebbe was a decendent through his father in law. His father in law was the previous rebbe.

      • Re.1) The Rebbe is a Novi. This is documented and beyond dispute – there are piskei din on the matter. Re. nevuah only in Eretz Yisroel – pls site the source.
        Re. 2) So? Learn Rambam – there are stages to Geulo. It’s like a nurse telling a lady in labour who wants to check-in to the hospital that “it depends on results”…
        Re. 3) Is this in Rambam – Hilchos Melochim p. 11 – hidden somewhere between the lines or own your p’shat / chidush? Re. “and then die… ” – what happened to t’chiyas hameisim?
        Re. 4) The Rebbe *is* the direct paternal descendant of Dovid HaMelech – this is also documented and beyond dispute – please learn.

        • 1. No, it isn’t documented, and it is definitely disputed. A nevuah is ALWAYS phrased as “ko omar Hashem”, and the Rebbe never ever said such a thing. Reb Yoel who thought that the Rebbe had given a nevuah said he had been mistaken. It was nothing but wishful thinking. Even R Wolpo wrote that the Rebbe deliberately did NOT phrase his prediction as a nevuah, so as not to fall into the halachic category of nevu’ah.

          That a person can only become a navi in Eretz Yisroel is in Moed Koton 25a. Also Mechilta at the beginning of Bo, and in Kuzari 2:8-14.

          2. The ge’uloh takes time, but until it’s complete it’s not a ge’uloh at all. The Rebbe rejected the idea that we are in “aschalta dige’ulah”. We are still in golus, and in “choshech koful umechupol”. And if the person attempting to bring the geulah fails, then he was NOT Moshiach at all.

          3. Funnily enough it IS in the Rambam. Not in Hilchos Melochim; the Rambam did write other things, you know. What happened to techiyas hameisim? That may be many generations after Moshiach. Still, it’s not a good pircha; if the Rebbe does come back and redeem us, he can remarry and have sons to succeed him.

          4. Um, NO. It is NOT documented at all. There is NOT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE that the Rebbe was a male-line descendant of Dovid Hamelech. Nor has any responsible person ever claimed otherwise. We know the Rebbe’s lineage for eight generations; past that we have no idea.

          In sum, you seem to be a complete am ho’oretz in these inyonim, and you should take your own advice and learn a Jewish word. In the meantime please confine your commenting to subjects on which you do know something, so you don’t give ammunition to the misnagdim.

          • Tayere Yid, please open up your HaYom Yom p. 9 (the sefer that kinderlach in your neighbourhood cheider chabad learn starting from age of 6) and read the beginning of the hakdomoh. Read it aloud mit a niggun if that helps. Then you will know as the words will surely enter the heart… The Rebbe is a direct descendent of Alter Rebbe who is a direct descendent of the Maharal of Prague who is in turn a direct descendent of Dovid haMelech.

            Regarding the Rebbe’s n’vuo – ok dispute it. I’ve seen it with my own eyes. If you want to farbreng on the subject – by all means. Nu? I don’t unfortunately have the time to learn R’ Volpo’s sforim – I can barely manage my chitas being an am ho’oretz and all… But wasn’t there an actual *real* psak din that *documented* that the Rebbe is a Novi?

            I agree with you on one thing – I do have to increase in limud and frankly posting these shtusim here is not helping and probably is bitul Toiro r”l. You can make your own conclusions for yourself of course.

            As to giving ammo to misnagdim – show me an emeser misnagid and I’ll worry about that. I’ve seen many who called themselves misnagdim and turned out to be mishigoyim…

            Brocho vehatzlocho

            • Why don’t YOU look it up. The Rebbe is NOT ben-achar-ben from the Alter Rebbe. There is no evidence that he is from the Maharal. And there is no evidence at all that the Maharal is from Dovid.

            • I’m looking at it right now. What evidence would you like? DNA maybe? Is there any way to get some intellectual honesty out of you? This is printed in the Rebbe’s seifer.. In other words – *documented* beyond any dispute as far as this am ho’oretz is concerned. If you don’t own the seifer – let me know and I’ll ship you one (free of charge), bli neder. Of course with all the prolific typing you’ve been doing lately I wonder if you’ll have the time to sign for the package let alone do a shtickle looking up yourself… Nebuch.

            • DNA evidence would be nice, if it were available. If we had a copy of Dovid’s Y chromosome, we could just compare modern claimants to it and know for sure. But we don’t, so that’s out.

              What evidence do I want? How about the same evidence you’d want if I were to claim to be ben-achar-ben from Dovid Hamelech.

              But in fact the Hayom Yom doesn’t even make such a claim. If you’re looking at it and you still think it says what you claim, then you’re illiterate. It’s not enough to stare at a printed page, you have to also be able to read the language in which it’s written!

              We know the LR’s yichus for eight generations; beyond that we have no idea.

            • First, quote the page (and the version, since the original Hebrew version has been lost).

              Second, even if it is written there (and I don’t trust you until I see it inside), it is not evidence. The previous LR was not a historian or a genealogist, and even such a person would have to cite evidence, not simply state something as a fact. A bare assertion by ANYBODY is not evidence.

      • FYI: R’ Akiva, along with the rest of the Sanhedrin, rejected Bar Kokhba when he murdered one of the Sanhedrin for disagreeing with him. He died immediately after in battle because he lost the support of the Sanhedrin.

        • That’s one version of the story. But it’s not the version the Rambam had. The Rambam holds that Bar Kochva was the real deal, and the chachomim continued to support him right until he was killed by the Romans. And that they were RIGHT to do so, even though it turned out differently. And that if another Bar Kochva were to arise the next day, they would have been obligated al pi din to support him too.

        • Bzzzt. Neither the previous Rebbe NOR this Rebbe were descended in the male line from the Alter Rebbe. There is no reason to suppose that they go back to the Maharal. And even if they did, there is NO evidence that the Maharal goes back to Dovid. That is a baseless legend.

          The truth is we have no idea of the Rebbe’s yichus more than eight generations back. It’s perfectly POSSIBLE that he was ben-achar-ben from Dovid. But it’s also possible that he wasn’t.

      • the rebbe is traced the same way as his father-in-law.they are both ben achar ben from the tzemach tzedek(third chabad rebbe).the rebbe married his third cousin.

        • And NEITHER ONE is known to have been ben-achar-ben from Dovid. It’s entirely possible that they were, and if one was then so was the other, but there is not the slightest shred of evidence for it. There are probably many people in the world who have such a yichus, and just don’t know it. For all I know both you and I have this yichus, and the Lubavitcher Rebbes did not; ein eilu elo divrei nevius. But if someone appears to be Moshiach, and we don’t know his yichus, it’s fair to ASSUME that he has the right yichus and follow him, until Eliyohu comes to tell us for sure.

    35. Amazing to see so many tayere Yidden so passionate about inyonei geulo u’moshiach.. And so much emesser achdus and ahavas Yisroel here. (I’m not trying to be funny – I truly believe that even those on this board who try to sound tough are merely acting out on their built-up brotherly love – b’emes)… And since there’s definitely no ulteriour motives here, one is forced to conclude that this is pure ahavas chinom which will bring us to Geulo shleimo v’emitis toikef u’miyad MaMoSh!

      And a groisser yasher koyach to R’ Klein (shlit’a? can we say this “shlit’a” at all these days without being called names??). Since I’m a proste yid and an am ho’oretz, who am I to figure if you’re a godel or a kuton? But ein zach iz for sure – you did succeed in bringing great numbers of Yidden to finally talk about Moshiach. Sh’koyach!!

      We must be MaMoSH on the threshold of the Rebbe’s hisgalus.

      Yechi HaMelech!

    36. even with the truth in front of them people will choose to believe what they want to. the popular lubavich hotline known for its entertainment value said it best : we did not make up that the rebbe is moshiach,the rebbe made it up.

      • Out of respect for a Holy man whom I held great respect for, I will not voice my thoughts on this out loud.

        But, consider that his last few years he said some things which could be interpreted that way…. Consider his illnesses and overall health during that period.

    37. If Rabbi Klein really believes that Mishichistin are apikursim, then I wonder why he doesn’t also write off rashi as an apikores. Rashi says that Yaakov avinu loy meis means mamash in a guf (see taanis page 5). One must conclude that Rashi, the abarbanel etc. are all apikursim. Misguided and wacked out, the meshichistim may be, but APIKURSIM!? Give me a break.

      • Read the teshuva. He’s perfectly well aware of that Rashi and addresses it. We know that Yaacov lo meis because there’s a posuk that says so; if we had such a posuk about the Rebbe then it would be OK to say the same thing about him too.

      • Well my late grandfather from Ungvar told us differently. Rabbi Klein was a well respected Rav in Ungvar so please don’t talk about dogcatchers just because you want to make the Rebbi the Messiah!

        Moshiach will come when guys like you stop their Sinas Chinom against all that you don’t agree with.

    38. Leaving the Dead or Alive issue alone for a moment, isn’t Moshiach supposed to be the leader of klal yisroel, not of only one chassidus in klal yisroel?

      • Lubavitchers believe that he was the leader of klal yisroel, it’s just that many of that klal didn’t know it.

        The Rebbe himself said this REPEATEDLY about his father-in-law, so there’s no escaping it. He ALWAYS referred to his father-in-law as “nosi hador”. And since he was a world-class gaon, and was perfectly aware of all the arguments that could be made against it, and he still said it, who can challenge it?

        Not that you have to AGREE with it, but you can’t condemn it.

    39. This is not the first time Menashe Klien has come up with a radical statement…… anyone remember his “pilegesh” stance a few years ago??? That is when he lost his credibility.

    40. If anyone knows about The Rav, they would know that he directly forbid that during his lifetime, his opinions and rulings be written down. That is why there is so little out there which is directly from his hand. It is being written down now, slowly.
      So if anything is written like the claims about the letter, it makes no sense, because he didn’t issue things like that. So it is a fraud from the start.

    41. as a chabad chossid i agree with him i just dont understand why none of the godolim take a stand against neturai kartah or more importent things

    42. I am wondering something here, if y’all believe in “techias hamaisim,” then according to YOU the Lubavitcher Rebbe will be alive once again, one way or another.

      This continuing attack on Lubavitch started at its inception. So put down all of your lifted noses and go on being a Jew and stop pretending that this argument began in 1994.

      • And so will be all other tzadikim. And *therefore*? DO *you* and other lubavitcher *really* believe in mashiach and techiyat hamessim? IF so, you should really be concerned to meet all tzadikim and others, and Mashiach when it will be someone other than the LR? Where will you put your face for all the strife you caused by declaring your Rebbe the Mashiach?

    43. Milhouse:

      I would like to ask you a question: you write (as does Rav Klein) that the Rebbe did not force everyone. Can you describe for me what you envision the words in teh RamBam actually mean?

      • Exactly what they say. Moshiach will be a king just like Dovid and Yehoash and Chizkiyohu and Bar Kochva, and Torah will be the law of the land. If you do an avera and the authorities find out you will be arrested. If you don’t put on tefilin or eat matzah on pesach, the police will come and make you. If there are reports of avoda zara in the land he will send inspectors into every house to look for them, as Yehoash did. That’s the plain meaning of the word “yochof”, and there is no reason to translate it any other way. And the fact is that the Rebbe did not have that kind of power.

    44. What doesRav Klein mena when he writes that he does not come to destroy the big house that the Rebbe built? I find this statement curious. I would think that he would write that he does not come to destroy the great man or the great Tzaddik?

    45. DIN MELECH BEFORE CHEZKAS MOSHIACH??
      I am very surprised at Rav Klein’s question about the eligibility of the Rebbe being Moshiach as the Rambam says “Yaamod Melech” and the Rebbe was not a Melech. Does Rabbi Klein think the Rambam is talking about someone who will have the din of a Melech even before he is established as Chezkas Moshiach? How could this possibly be. If he was appointed by a Novi, then he would not be only Chezkas Moshiach, he would be Vadai Moshiach and would not need any more simonim to prove his status as Moshiach as it wouldn’t make sense for example to say that Eliyahu Hanavi would come and declare someone to be Melech Hamoshiach only to find out later that he wasn’t the one? the nevuah was not true?

      So how could the Rambam be possibly talking about a din Melech. And if you say that this “Melech” was not appointed for the purpose of “restoring Malchus Dovid” but rather as a melech stam, not as a Yoresh Malchus Dovid, for this appointment you need a Beis Din of 71 Zkeinim and a Novi as the Rambam paskens in Hilchos Melochim Perek 1 Halacha 3?! See also L’kutei Sichos volume 8 pg 361 where the Rebbe says we can’t say the Rambam’s intention of Yaamod Melech is through a Beis Din of 70 and a Novi, but rather al derech the concept of a king as the Rambam refers to “Ben Kuziva Hamelech” who was declared by Rabbi Akiva to be Melech Hamoshiach but he was not appointed by any Novi or Beis Din.

      From the above is muchrach to say that the Rambam is referring not to someone who already enjoys mamosh dinei malchus but to the concept of a Manhig bichlal who is “called” a melech. We see in Midrash Raboh at the end of Parshas Bechukosai that Yiftach says “Ani MELECH VoEileich Eitzel Pinchas” even though Yiftach was only a Shofet but NOT a King (see Sh”UT of the Rashba “Hamiyuchosos L’Ramban” Siman 284 that a Shofet clearly does not have the din of a Melech).

      As to this status of “Melech” Hamoshiach even before he shows simanim of Chezkas, see Rambam Hilchos Melochim perek 1 Halacha 7 where he writes: “Kivan Shenimshach Dovid Zocho B’Keser Malchus Vaharei Hamalchus Lo Ulvonov Hazechorim Ad Oilom” which means that Malchus Dovid exists forever also in the time of golus as Chazal tell us “Dovid Melech Yisroel Chai V’kayom”, so even though we may not have the “cheftza” of Melucha, nevertheless, in every generation we have the “Gavra” of “Melech Mibeis Dovid” who inherits the Keser Malchus of Dovid Oviv.

      See also the Akeida parshas Vayechi on the posuk “Lo Yosur Sheivet Miyehudah” who writes that in every generation Hashem did not leave us without a remnance from Shevet Yehudah, Rebi and all the Chachmei Hadoros, and they conducted “NESIUS, Rabonus and Geonus.. Vgam acharei Chein Lo Sor Meihem Shevet NOHEG SRORA UMINUI MALCHUS Biktzas Mekomos Moshvosom. Ukvar zochar Horav Binyomin Baal Hamaso-os Sherooh B’einov Bimdinas Bagdad Ir Gedolah Lelokim Vshomo Kamo Alofim Urevovos Miyisrael , Ub’yom Ginusom Malkom Haya Rochev, V’nosi Mizera Dovid Etzlo B’mirkeves Hamishne Asher Lo, V’yikoru L’fonov B’kovod Godol: Aso Derech L’Ben Dovid, UBCHOL ZMAN UZMAN YESH K’YOTZEI B’EILU B’CHOL MOKOM SHEHEIM” ad kan lshono.

      See also Chidushei Agodos Maharsha 98:b on Divrei Hamaschil Kgon Ano: ” DMoshiach…Mei-Osan Habo-im Mibnei Dovid V’adayin hoyo lohem Memsholo Gam B’Golus”.

      Bichlal I am surprised that Rav Klein would expend part of his sefer to bash yidden lomdim yirei Shomayim, a whole movement (it’s already yodua umifursam that 99.9% of Lubavitchers, breish glei or shtillerheit believe the Rebbe is or will be Moshiach) dedicated to Harbotzas Torah, so you don’t like their extremisim, but they have their own Rabonim, geonim boki bshas Uposkim and have sources in Torah for their hanhogos and don’t need his input as he doesn’t need the input of some Lubavitcher Rov to passel him for anything he does, let alone call him an apikoros r”l, very surprised at Rav Klein, unless someone led his hand …

      • Enough pshetlach and dreidelach. Melech means a king, poshut kipshuto, as defined in halacha. Someone whose coinage circulates, and is accepted by the people of his country as their ruler. Someone who holds the power of life and death in his hands. Someone on whom one can make the brocho “shecholak michvodo”. The Rebbe was not that.

        Had his wife and brother both survived him, she would have given him chalitzoh, as the widow of the Beis Yisroel did to the Lev Simcho. After that she could have remarried. The widow of a king does not give chalitzah, nor may she remarry. But he was not a king, and those laws did not apply.

    46. Does anyone know if the Abarbanel is referring to one who was designated as Moshiach while living and then passes away, if he can be believed to return after techiyas hamaisim and be Moshiach? If yes, I still don’t see why the Meshichistim don’t put away their flags and banners and move onward. Even according to them, there is no guarantee when moshiach will appear/return. So if c”v this golus continues, how many years or decades can their yiddishkeit withstand this messianic mania without suffering permanent damage, such as cutting themselves off from the rest of yiddishkeit.

    47. Does anyone know if the Abarbanel is referring to one who was designated as Moshiach while living and then passes away, if he can be believed to return after techiyas hamaisim and be Moshiach? If yes, I still don’t see why the Meshichistim don’t put away their flags and banners and move onward. Even according to them, there is no guarantee when moshiach will appear/return. So if c”v this golus continues, how many years or decades can their yiddishkeit withstand this messianic mania without suffering permanent damage, such as cutting themselves off from the rest of yiddishkeit.

      • Read the teshuvah, which is linked at the top of the article.

        The Abarbanel doesn’t specify anything, he just says “Don’t think Moshiach can’t be from those who will be resurrected, for the Amoraim were already unsure of this in Perek Chelek, where they said ‘if he is from the dead…'”. In other words, the Abarbanel just quotes the same gemoro in Sanhedrin that is the main source-text of the meshichists, and it’s obvious that he understands it like them, that it is possible for Moshiach to come from the dead. The main point of bringing this Abarbanel is just to prove that they are not distorting the gemoro; on the contrary, their understanding of it is a legitimate one, that the Abarbanel shared.

        None of this means the Rebbe WILL be moshiach, just that he CAN be, and therefore they’re entitled to believe he will be.

      • One important point that most commenters, including the author of the original article, completely missed:

        R Menashe Klein does NOT call the belief that the Rebbe will be Moshiach apikorsus. He doesn’t say it, he doesn’t hint at it, and it is wrong to spin it as if this is his message. What he calls apikorsus is the BIZUY TALMID CHOCHOM that he thinks the radical meshichists cause, when they insist on rubbing their mishugas in everyone’s faces. They turn the Rebbe into a joke, and THAT is their apikorsus. Someone who quietly believes what he believes, is entitled to do so and R Klein has no problem with that.

        It follows, kal vochomer ben beno shel kal vochomer, that anyone who denounces those things that the Rebbe himself verifiably said, as so many opponents of the meshichists have done, IS CERTAINLY AN APIKORES.

        • Not true at all! It may be your opinion! But Rav Klein clearly explains his position and states “kol hoomer al mi aehynoh mashiach behagdarah sheyesh lanu , milvad shehu shakran umessis umediach, hareh machlish haemunoh beyisroel vekofer haemunoh bemashiach amiti bebiossoy behatzlossochossoy ubehatzlchas klal yisroel …vegam lechalushey moach hu rachmonoh litzlan dugmph shel notzrim “,

          so, IN ADDITION TO the fact that it ebarasses the Rebbe, he (rav Klein) claims that it goes against the way a Jew is supposed beleive. It is against the directives given to us how to identify mashacih, it weakens the beleif in the true mashiach, in his coming, in his success (and then he also adds that to some weak people it resembles christianity). to say that all he claimed is that it embarrasses the rEbbe is a ALUBAVITCHER SPIN on the words of the Rabbi. You can hold what you want of him but be honest and do not distort his words. You can read the teshuva itself at length where in his opinion to hold that the REbbeis mashiach is wrong! and is against the jewish beleif in mashiach!

        • “when they insist on rubbing their mishugas in everyone’s faces.”

          You and others have made this slanderous comment without any substantiation. Talking loshon hora about an entire group of Bnei Yisroel, which in this case numbers 10’s of thousands ( and not a fringe group as some would have it) is a most serious issur see Derech Mitzvoisecho vechulhu.

          In 770 for example where Yechi is said after each davening, by either the Shliach Tzibbur or children , it is said with the explicit approval of the Gabboim of 770 who are democratically elected each 3 years. Acharei Rabim Lehatos is what the Rebbe wanted with regard to Gabboim and members of the Crown Heights Vaad Hakohol, such that each one elected must obtain over 50% of the votes of those who are elligible to vote. Saying Yechi then is like any instruction of the Gabboim.

          The same goes applies to all the Lubavitcher shuls and Yeshivas around the world. Yechi is said when the Gabboim or Rosh Yeshivas have approved it. And there are doznes of Shuls and Yeshivos where it is said with approval.

          As the video link quoted in one of the above posts, it was the Rebbe himself who vigorously encouarged with his left hand the singing in public of Yechi, knowing full well that this song and saying would become the words to herald the revleation of Moshiach. This is not the first time that an innovation of the Rebbe was ridiculed, only to be accpeted many years later, just as “kiruv rechoikim” was ridiculed by the Misnagdim in 60’s and 70’s. Those who are fighting this are fighting with fire.

    48. shalom aliechiam to you all. l happened to be deaf and can request all you yidden to look up in the rebbes holy letters and you will see for yourself that the rebbe is here many people have received answers in many different areas in advise, blessings,comfort,and many other things also the rebbe has answered my thoughts and also even if l did not like the answered,like a rebuked,always received blessings and encourghments .we know he is moshiach ,lt’s the geula we want now! the world is changing the world is doing tz. lt’s great that this form is here for everyone to letting this all out lmm geula!

    49. Saying someone is Moshiach in not kefira, even though it may well be a meshigas.
      O heard from a gr8 mekubal – a kofar is one who says that if the rebbe won’t be moshiach, then there is no moshiach, that is kafira.

    50. Reply to #219
      Had the wife and brother of Ben Kuziva “Hamelech” survived him, would she have given him chalitza? B’pashtus, according to the strict halacha in Rambam, yes, since he was not appointed by a Novi & Beis Din of 71
      he did not have the DIN of a melech.

      Therefore Yaamod Melech here is not referring to an actual King with all the bells & whistles of dinei malchus but simply someone who comes from Malchus Beis Dovid who shows signs of melucha and has the simanim of chezkas, i.e. hogeh, yokuf, yilchom etc.

      There’s an interesting gemora in Horiyos (11b) involving Rabbeinu Hakodosh who asks R’ Chiya if he was living in the time of the Beis Hamikdash if he would need to bring a Soir for a korbon (as a hedyot brings a S’eirah-famale but a Nosi brings a He-goat). Now the question is, the Mishna had already said that the criteria of a Nosi (who brings a Soir) is a Melech, so why would Rabbeinu Hakodosh have a question bichlal if he was not a Melech?

      The simple explanation is that since Rabbeinu Hakodosh was Nosi of the Sanhedrin and was from Zera Dovid this was considered a form of Malchus akin to Malchus Dovid in the time of Golus. See Rashi on the spot who explains the question of Rebbi: “K’lomar Nesius Didi Mi Hu Nesius Maalya D’Ilu Havina Bizman Shebais Hamikdash Kayom Meisina Soir O Lo”

      See sefer Nesivos Olam of the Maharal, in which is printed a letter from his Talmid Reb Yisroel who writes to him:
      Moshiach Tzidkeinu, Brosheinu Malkeinu, MELECH YEHUDAH…. Hagaon Hamufla Moreinu VRabeinu Horav R’ Yehudah Liva, Yechi Adoneinu L’olam.. Ruach Apeinu Moshiach Tzidkeinu”

      btw. I am not hooked on davka insisting the Rebbe fulfilled chezkas Moshiach according to Halacha although I wouldn’t be surprised, I am just pointing out that Rav Klein makes a comment about Yaamod Melech which leads the reader to think he believes the Rambam requires a din Melech which clearly he doesn’t as I’ve proven.

      • While it does not require the full “din” of melech, it simply requires ACTUAL KINGSHIP! The power to RULE based on his title as a melech. That he has an army that fights the enemies of the jewish people in the *literal* sense, that he runs medina in the *literal* He was not close to any form of “rulership” that exist nowadays (mayor, governor, president and certainly not a melech). A chassidishe Rebbe who has chassidim does not a melech make.

        Laws of “nessius” which had somehow a LEGAL POWER of Beis Din does not mean that a chassidic has this power. Also, “nassi” and “melech” do not mean the same thing in all respects!

        And please it is so laughable when you guys quote melitza languages to anyone who is familiar with these leshonot written in those and these days that it does not begin to mean what you guys are talking about! no one claimed Maharal Miprag to be “cheskat mashiach” ! No one actually made such claim in the literal sense since Bar Kochva and no one made such claim based on the ruling of the Rambam since the Rambam codified this into halacha. To bring proof from “leshonot” when the reality is that NO ONE HAS CROWNED OR UPHELD THE TITLE OF “CHEZKAT MASHIACH” to anyone is a chucha utlolah!

    51. Thank you Mr. Richard Milhaus Nixon for your response to my post (#220). So far my hypothesis that there is no mekor in the Torah nor any historical episode of the same individual being designated as Moshiach in life and beyond has not been refuted. I therefore call on all yellowflagger meshichistim to stop the madness, and return to normative Chasidish Yiddishkeit. In this zechus may we be zoche to the Geulah Shlaima Bemihaira!

    52. To use the term “laughable” with no concrete support from Rishonim Achronim or from the Rambam himself will not get you any closer to proving your insisted pshat in the Rambam.

      Since you are so sure about the process can you please explain to me how this “melech” who you agree will not yet have a “din” melech will accomplish “Yokuf Kol Yisroel” when yidden are spread b’chol katzvei tevel under democratic governments? Will he excercise his “literal rulership” by way of execution akin to the arba misos beis din against the law of the lands in which the Yidden reside thereby waging war against the entire world including the superpowers and all this without the help of osos umofsim (Hilchos Melochim 11:3)??

      What makes you so certain that the Rambam is not simply saying that one of the criteria for Moshiach is that he needs to be from Zera Dovid and in the capacity of a Melech similar to what I brought from the Maharsha”Oson Habo-im Mibnei Dovid Vadayin Hoyo Lohem Memsholo Gam Bgolus”.

      Just for your information, the Rebbe is accepted as a king kipshuto by tens of thousands of his Chassidim who accept his instruc¬tions as the word of royalty in the literal sense and it is not an exaggeration to say that the Rebbe has a solid army of over 50,000 shluchim worldwide (and growing rapidly after 3 Tammuz beyond comprehension!) who left their families and comforts of the civilized & frum world solely based on one commanding order from their General! Can you give me one other example of a person, Rosh Yeshiva or any other descendant of Dovid Hamelech in the last millenia that enjoyed such a command? It’s known (whether the world laughed at it or not) that any chossid would literaly die to fulfill any order of the Rebbe. And you’re telling me that’s not malchus? (and btw can you give me an example of any Zera Mibeis Dovid since the time of the Gemora who’s entire life was solely dedicated to Yokuf Kol Yisroel and had the ability to excercise that and actively went about it literally like the Rebbe has? If you heard the Chief Rabbi of England, Sir Jonathon Sacks in his unity lecture before Pesach, you would have heard exactly that.

      Just for your information, many Rabbonim, Gedolim, before 3 Tammuz considered the Rebbe b’Chezkas Moshiach. I believe there is even a tape, you can ask around in Lubavitch to find it of an Asifa held in front of thousands of chassidim one Motzoei Shabbos in 770 in 1992 where Horav Hagaon R’ Yosef Heller said that he thoroughly went through the Rambam L’Halacha over the summer and concluded that the Rebbe fits the description of Chezkas Moshiach and therefore encouraged publicly for everyone to sign a paper to accept his Malchus. Please don’t bring me other comments or letters of Rabbi Heller, they are not relevant to the fact that at one point he held the Rebbe fits the description of the Rambam as Chezkas Moshiach literally.

      • He will force all Israel because he will be a literal king, for which halacha gives criteria, such as that his coinage circulates, and that he has the power of life and death. First he will force all the Jews under his jurisdiction to follow the Torah. Then he will gather all the Jews to EY and be their king, and so they will all be under his sovereignty and have no choice but to obey his laws, which will be the Torah laws.

        The Rebbe never forced anyone, nor did he have the power to force anyone, let alone “kol yisroel”.

        You ask for an example of such a person. That is a stupid request, because there has never been anyone who was bechezkas Moshiach since Bar Kochva.

        Yes, it’s true that in the early ’90s many rabbonim did think the Rebbe fit the criteria, and twisted themselves in all kinds of knots and pshetlach to say so. It was wishful thinking and mass hysteria, especially as the Rebbe got sicker and sicker, and nobody wanted to face the truth that we would lose him. The only way to save him was to merit the geulah immediately, while he was still alive, so it became more and more important to insist that this would happen. But it didn’t, and in the aftermath of his passing the saner rabbonim climbed down from their ladders and admitted that they’d been mistaken. Keshem shekiblu schar al hadrisha, kach al haprisha.

    53. Reply to #245
      We indeed have a precedence for saying someone will be Moshiach after his passing, R’ Nochum Tshernobler said so about the Baal Shem Tov :
      See this in sefer M’iras Ainayim in the Hakdama siman 23
      “Horav Hakodosh R’ Yaakov Yisroel from Tsherkas ZT’L said that his grandfather Harav Hakodosh R’ Nochum from Tshernobel said that although it says “Vzorach Hashemesh Ubo Hashemesh, Dor Holeich V’dor Bo, nevertheless the Baal Shem Tov, Zochrono Yoir Aleinu, L’fonov Lo Haya Vacharov Lo Yihiyeh Ad Bias Goel UKSHEYOVO MOSHIACH VET ER ZEIN and he repeated these words 3 times VET ER ZEIN”

      • I saw this. It is not a direct statement by RAv Nochum. It is a statement by someone who heard from anothe person that Rav Nochum supposedly said it. It is also an interpretation that he meant that he will the mashiach (where there could be another interpretation) There is no other record of Rav Nochum anywhere else. Nor is there any remez for this idea in his sefarim! Nor is tt common knowledge by other writings. It is found in one place which is not what the person himself heard from Rav Nochum himself.
        and in turn: We do not find ANY OTHER WRITTEN SOURCE OR EVEN ORAL SOURCE , while we have numerous sources for such an idea durin gTHEIR LIFETIMES (THE REbbe’s lifetimes)! which clearly screams out that after the tzadik’s ptira this idea was widely no longer accepted.

        • This blog is bringing out a very serious issue.. All of a sudden, because some are petrified or it irks them to have a possibility of a Lubavitcher Moshiach, are possuling seforim that were always considered Niskabel bchol tfutzos Yisroel.

        • The Cherkasser is not a good enough source for you? Even if we will stipulate that R Nochum never said it; isn’t it enough that the Cherkasser believed he said it, and had no problem repeating it? Surely the Cherkasser was not calling R Nochum an apikores, or attributing to him de’os tefelos! And if the Cherkasser thought it was OK to believe such things, who are you to say it’s not OK?

    54. Reply to #239
      (I will respond with 2 posts not to make it so long)

      As you seem to be stuck on the full blown “king” thing (of course without a din of malchus…) imagine someone, a persuasive leader from beis Dovid comes on the scene, is Yokuf Kol Yisroel B’darkei Noam Ubdarkei Sholom, now every Jew is Shomer Torah Umitzvos Bishleimus, he manages to rid the enemies of Israel through “Ruach Sfosov Yomis Rosho” and he builds the Beis Hamikdash and gathers Nidchei Yisroel, are you going to say that he is disqualified because no bullets were fired, not enough action, cowboys and Indians..?? Pulease, talk about krum reasoning.

      Besides, is this how you envision Moshiach that the only way it is possible to unfold is when yidden will be coerced into following Torah Umitzvos, is that the type of Tikun Olam and Umolah Haaretz Dei-ah es Hashem, the Rambam envisions the Tachlis of creation will be realized?

      Your insistence that Kfiah is davka coercion, kefiah mamosh, is unfounded and many examples can be cited from gemorah and from the Rambam himself that it could mean Kfiah Bidvorim, B’darkei Noam.

      See Baba Basra 8:b & Kesubos 49:b: ” Raboh Achpeih L’Rabi Noson Bar Ami V’shokil Mineih Daled Mei-ah Zuzi L’tzedokah”

      Tosfos al asar is mochiach that were talking about “K’fiah BIDVORIM”

      See also Kesubos 53:a “Achpeih Val” and Rashi translates that he forced him BIDVORIM.

      As to Halacha L’maaseh in Rambam see Hilchos Nedorim (perek 13 Halacha 5-7) the Rambam says “Umahu Habittul Sheyochuf Osah Laasos Dovor She-osra Oso.. V’Kofeh Osah Laasos…” and the Radbaz explains that the meaning is NOT Kfiah Mamosh but “he tells her”.

      Another example in Rambam is concerning Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach where the Rambam in Hilchos Melochim (perek 8:10) says “Tzivo Moshe Rabbeinu Mipi Hagevurah LOCHUF Es Kol Boei Olam L’kabel Mitzvos Shenitztavu Bnei Noach” and the Tosfos Yom Tov explains (Avos perek 3:14) that this Kfiah is “Bikfias DEVORIM L’hamshich Libom El R’Tzon Konom V’cheifetz Tzurom”

    55. Reply to #239
      Response Continued
      It seems that many are stuck on this “power” thing based on certain sichos concerning Eschalta D’geulah where the Rebbe expressed that Moshiach will not reckon with democracy..etc., however the Rebbe never said that the Rambam’s intention of Yokuf must be that he will need to actually excercise coercion, adraba the Rebbe expressed many times that the process will occur B’darkei noam Ubdarkei sholom, just that Moshiach will not reckon with the world, democracy, and consider how people think etc., (see Sichas 6 Tishrei 5727 where the Rebbe says that normally when wanting to influence people a survey is made to see what interests the people.., Moshiach will not reckon with such ways but will influence through V’yokuf Kol Yisroel, which the Rebbe’s intention is easily understood that Moshiach will prevail without compromise but not to confuse that it MUST be through bows and arrows… in fact the Rebbe says it cloearly in that sicha (S’if 5) (the Rambam’s criteria of chezkas Moshiach is “someone who is works “L’chazek Bidka”, if there’s any place that’s deficient in limud Hatorah and kiyum Hamitzvos he puts himself into it to strengthen it, and it needs to be done in a way of “V’yokuf”… bemes B’DARKEI NOAM UV’DARKEI SHOLOM but in a way of Yokuf..”

      See also Igros Moshe Orach Chaim volume 4 siman 81 where Reb Moshe Feinstein Z’TL proves that the intention of the Rambam “Yilchom Milchemes Hashem” is NOT davka talking about a war with physical warfare but a war where Hashem Yisboreich will kill the enemy “MIN HASHOMAYIM”! as it’s clear from the pesukim of Yechezkel, only that this will all happen through the leadership and zechus of Moshiach! and as Reb Moshe writes:
      “Vkamoh Milchomos L’melochim Hatzadikim Haya B’lo Klei Zayan”

      See also in Dibros Moshe to Baba Basra siman 58 note 108″ And behold in the future when Melech Hamoshiach will rule… HE WILL NOT NEED TO FIGHT & CONQUER B’KOACH MILCHOMO… FOR WITHOUT WAR THE NATIONS WILL BE SUBDUED TO HIM”

      We won’t get into the Rebbe’s Koach bruchniyus right now and incredible miracles that have been witnessed by thousands, including the famous Purim Farbrengen 1953 and the shouting of Hura in the middle of the night and Stalin’s sudden death thereafter, v’koheina rabos, Yom Kippur war.. all contributing to his milchomos Hashem which anyone “in the know” cannot dismiss them and surely they played a role in the ruling of these Rabbonim when declaring Chezkas Moshiach etc.

      It is also important to point out the diyuk in Rambam “V’yokuf”
      which indicates that he is still in the middle of his mission and has not yet succeeded as he does not write “V’Kofo” as he writes concerning Moshiach Vadai “Ubono” V’kibetz” which indicates that he already finished. This is clear also from the Rambams Hemshech later because “Im Oso V’hitzliach” is already part of the simanim of Moshiach Vadai, so therefore we must say that in the period of Chezkas he still is in the middle of his efforts “lokuf Kol Yisroel” – see also the loshom of the Mabit in Kiryas Sefer “V’kofeh.. V’locheim” – PRESENT tense.

      I think this all becomes even more clear when introducing the vort of the Rebbe Rashab found in the Reshima of the previous Rebbe (said at a Melava Malka Motzoei Sh”k Bamidbar 1905 in discussion with his son the previous Rebbe concerning the revelation of Moshiach) as he describes the Rambam’s Yaamod Melech “Sheyaamod Tzadik Godol” and through him everything will happen.

      V’ten Lchacham V’yechkam Od.

    56. Millhouse, it is time to stop being a dafkenik. When you call up a Kohen for an aliya, do you ask him if he can name his great grandfather or do you accept he is a Kohen because his father told him that that he was a Kohen?

    57. Reply to #253
      I agree with post #254, this is Indeed a VERY DANGEROUS phenomenon developing here, valid mikoros are cited here, namely the M’iras Ainayim and they become invalid because they don’t agree with people’s ameratzes, preconceived notions or stereotypes? This is derech Hatorah? And mamosh a chutzpa to call the grandson of Reb Nochum Tshurnobler, Reb Yaakov Yisroel of Tshurkas zecher tzadik livrocho “a someone” he was a Rebbe himself, and was called “Hakodosh” and he himself tells the story which he himself heard directly from his grandfather, Reb Nochum Tshurnobler that the Baal Shem Tov (after his passing) WILL BE MOSHIACH! Do you not understand yiddish, VET ER ZEIN and he said it 3 times! Ribono Shel Olom! And it’s interesting that the way it is quoted in the sefer is that Reb Yaakov Yisroel clarified CLEARLY what his father meant (maybe for people like you who might want to distort Daas Torah) that his grandfather meant simply THAT THE BAAL SHEMTOV AFTER HIS DEATH WILL BE THE MOSHIACH!

      • what is “dangerous” is the development of a new religion and creeds by your movement! by changing the way yiddin believed for thousands of years. The sefer is not that the baal hasefer heard from HaRav YY Techrkas, but he heard it from someone else who said it over in the nameof RYYT. The Sefer is hardly a sefer that one may not “question” the exactness of context and exact language. Especially since NO ONE ELSE has it recorded! Especially that no other chassidim of RYYT have such a tradition! Especially that no other Rebbe has made such an asseertion! Es[ecially in light of the record we have of so many pronouncment of the BASHT to be mashiach during his lifetime and all we have after his ptira is one obscure hearsay statement to be come “makor” to make a NEW RELIGION! TO CHANGE FROM THE WAYS JEWS BELEIVED FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS! THIS IS THE *REAL DANGER!

        • Reply to 257
          The simple answer to your question is that after the Besht there were new doros of Rebbes each qualifying as a potential Moshiach by their Chassidim so as long as you have chassidim willing to except a new Rebbe and not get stuck on the old why would they insist that the potential Moshiach be from a previous generation if it could be their own whom they have accepted as “their” Rebbe. However, out of the ordinary do you find chassidim who will not want to accept a new Rebbe or at least accept that he could have the same kochos as the previous and this is indeed the case of R’ Nochum Tshernobler. In fact, this is exactly what he said: “even though it says Vzorach Hashemesh Ubo Hashemesh”, nevertheless there will be no one as great as the Besht and when Moshiach comes it will be him.

          Second Point:
          The Lubavitcher Rebbe said for 40 years that the previous Rebbe, his father in Law was Nosi Doreinu and Moshiach Tzidkeinu. If you can’t accept the Rebbe as a Bar Samcha it’s not worth continuing this conversation.

          • 1) your “answer” does not hold any water. There were probably hundreds and much more who did not accept a new rebbe and yet we do not find that they said so. WE do not find not even *one record* in their own writings that they have given this over to their talmidim. We do not find Mezritcher Maggid saying this after BSHT’s ptira. If anything we find that they felt despair due to the fact that their storng beleif that their Rebbe would mashicah did not and would not materialize.

            2) He never said this and especially he never wrote that this means that he will be the LITERAL MASHIACH! This was akin of saying “moshe goel rishon moshe goel achron”. He would so many times say that his FIL would lead TOWARDS MASHIACH TZIDKEYNO! hE SAID SOME OTHER THINGS THAT IMPLIED CLEARLY THAT HE DID NOT ENVISION HIM TO BE THE LITERAL MASHIACH (but something akin to all potential mashiach who have the sparks of the mashiach soul are somehow interconnected but not that they are theliteral mashiach that will redeem all yisrael).

            • For you to say such shtusim that the Rebbe didn’t say about his FIL that he will be Moshiach and to start giving pshetlach & dreidlach that he didn’t mean the actual Halachik Moshiach is mamosh migaleh ponim batorah shelo kahalacha as every bar bei rav dchad yoma in Lubavitch knows he said it and dozens of times in many different ways. If you want to kid yourself, you have that option like everything else in life but I suggest you humble yourself and do some research as to what the elder Chassidim say about this.

              I’m sure you’ll agree that few people in Lubavitch had a vast harchovidike understanding of the Rebbe’s Torah like Reb Yoel Kahn and Reb Yoel CLEARLY wrote in his famous 18 page Heora after 3 Tamuz (& AFTER his famous To-inu) that just like the Rebbe himself held that the previous Rebbe will be Moshiach Tzidkeinu kipshuto and said it tens of times so too do we maintain our belief that the Rebbe will be Melech Hamoshiach kipshuto and will lead us & Klal Yisroel out of Golus (although he ends off that there’s no inyan in being mifarsem this thing etc.)

            • Listen, I can’t compete with you guys over “megaleh ponim btorah sheloy khalacha”. and real farkumpte shtussim you guys overturned the whole concept of mashiach that is contrary to any literal meaning of what is written about it especially with egards to haalch in the rambam.

              It is useless to argue with you guys because “pakar tfey” whenever you deal with such discussions.
              Let me be very clear: the only one who earns the respect is the REbbe himself. The rest of you guys are not a “makor” and source. Whether they are great people, and they probably are in their own right and know a lot of chabad philosophy they are not a makor to determine and to establish a new religion or a new idea. In fac,t with all due respec to Rav KAhn he is actually part of the hyperbole and problem. He spoke (and so did many of your mashpiim and other spokespeole in lubavitch) so much shtussim in that era before 3 tammuz (some real apikorssus) that he hardly be a makor for someone to rely on his “expertise” in matters of mashiach how it was beleived for thousands of years and if he can change that beleif and even if he can interpret the words of the REbbe to mean something that is different from the way jews beleeived for thousands of years. you come with something blqack and white from the Rebbe ehimself for you to have something to rely on.

              There are so many things that the REbbe himself said that showed he did not mean that he meant the previous REbbe to be literal mashiach. Look it up where he explained what he meant when he made that statment you will see that he did not say that he is the literal mashaich.. Actually, I will bring one incident where he clearly stated that “no one knows who mashiach will be until he will be…even mashicah himself does NOT knoe this!”. This was repeated by Rav Groner that the Lr had told in that era….and many more such things…

              Yes, the ultimate blame for this is actually those people who fed you the whole “torah sheloy kehalacha” and created a new religion and created so many fights and divisiness that distance the coming of the real mashiach!

            • So was the Rebbe wrong in his belief that his FIL would be Moshiach? I mean, if he believed this literally, then why do you disagree with him?

    58. HERE’S ANOTHER PROOF FROM THE RAMCHAL
      Add this Mokor to the acceptable position al pi Torah that one can be Moshiach AFTER death:

      מספר תקט”ו תפלות של הרמח”ל -תפלה ש”ב
      קל אחד יחיד ומיוחד הרי משיחךהקדוש כמה חולאים הוא סובל…
      וזה מרה חרבו של מלאך המות בו במחשכים הושיבני כמתי עולם
      ונאמר בו נשכחתי כמת מלב.
      וכן העמידוה “אין בן דוד בא עד שיתייאשו מן הגאולה”
      שהרי “גזירה על המת שישכח מן הלב”

      רבון כל העולמים הרי כבר שכחה זאת שלטה עליו וישראל הם מתייאשים ממנו
      הרי זמן להחיות מתים. במאי אלא באמונה שלך שבה ונאמן אתה להחיות מתים
      ביום הוא אקים את סוכת דוד הנופלת. כמה שאנו מתדבקים באמונת יחודך
      ומקוים לך באמת כן תעורר אמונה זאת לגבי מלך המשיח להחיות אותו.
      ה’ אל תאחר לישועתך קיויתי ה’

      • This is the problem with you! you lump word that are not meant literally; are said poetically in a language of their own and you comeback with another “proof” and “makor”: we have here clealry a poetic comparison of “nishkachti mkemess” on mashiach that is forgotten like a mess and ramchal is requesting Hashem be mechayeh him (from the shkchah and yiush of him) *like* the revival of the dead but not that he is actually proclaiming that mashiach is from the literal dead! How pathetic!!

        • The Tefilah of the Ramchal actually fits very well with what we say in Shmoneh Esrei – Melech Meimis, Umichayeh, Umatzmiach Yeshuah – think about it. Very interesting…

    59. Because the Rebbe was madrich his chassidim with the following distinct principle:
      Whatever a Rebbe says about another Rebbe he paskens this on himself. Chassidim therefore say the same on him that he said about his FIL and I’m sure he is very proud of that.
      As to understand how everything fits and works out, that is not our job, but rather to follow the Torah and the teachings of our Rebbes b’kabolas ol. THIS is DAAS TORAH from time immemorial.

        • Poskim say Atheism is the worse form of avoda zora, it seems from your response you have no belief or trust in your Rebbe but must first check it out to “see” if it’s true, Vayaaminu B’Hashem Uvmoshe Avdo kol hamaamin Bmoshe maamin Bashem and vice versa R”L

          you, like the rest of misnagdim who hate other Jews R”L can’t argue a point with logic or Torah sources, so you end conversations by calling your opponent a kofer, as well as a tzadik & Godol Hador, R”L, which I hope you do tshuva for before Hakodosh Baruch Hu takes you to task on it.

          • I argued my point above (see #24 and #140), but apparently no one is listening. You guys think that your “Chassidus” is the only Torah and that your Rebbe is Moshe Rabbeinu, R”L! The Rebbe was not flawless and some of the things that he wrote (Atzmus Umahus etc.) were, at the very least and with no intended disrespect, a bit irresponsible. We see nowadays that many small-minded people have taken his words quite literally in a manner that is certainly k’firah (calling him boreinu, davenin to his picture, etc., R”L!).

            • Just because the Rebbe is not Chezkas Moshiach does not rule out that he can’t be just because he died. Please don’t bring up boreinu as I have never met anyone in Lubavitch that ch”v says that (I would not doubt that some crackos pop up every once in a while like in any group that encourages kiruv) but it’s known that such a person would not have a place in any Lubavitch shul whether it be Meshichist or anti-meshichist, Lubavitch is based on Torah. Ps. We daven to hakadosh boruch hu not to the Rebbe. PPs. We don’t believe our chassidus is the only Torah ch”v but we echo the words of the magid of Mezritch that ale meine talmidim hoben gegesen fun di zelba tup ober der litvak hut genumen di gedichte which means that only through chabad chassidus can one understand the pnimiyus of the besht’s Torah.

              I’m kinda uncomfortable as it seems you have an axe to grind with the Rebbe as well perusing your posts.

        • MORE PROOFS FROM TORAH SOURCES THAT MOSHIACH CAN BE FROM THE DEAD

          See the Pnei Moshe on the Yerushalmi, Brachos 17a, Perek 2 Mishnah 4
          “If he is from the living, his name is Dovid; if he is from the deceased his name is Dovid.” The Pnei Moshe explains: “If he is from the living, his name is Dovid; if he is from the deceased, HE IS DOVID HIMSELF.”
          The same teaching appears again in the Midrash Rabba on Eicha, 1:51. (see below)

          Hey, has anyone put the Pnei Moshe in cheirem?

          I direct you now to the discussion of Rav Popo’s shaila in Sanhedrin (Bavli) 98b How could you say Dovid Acher, it says Veavdi Dovid nosi aleihem lolom. What was his hava amina in the question if not min hakomim bitchiya I am aware of the Rebbe’s sicha to the contrary (as the Rebbe explains it l’shitas Harambam), however, the makshan certainly held meisaya kipshuto.
          Has anyone thrown him out of the beis midrash?

          See also Eicha Rabba 1:51, (regarding Melech Hamoshiach) “If he is from the living his name will be Dovid, and if he is from the dead he will be Dovid himself.” The Ometz Yeshacha (for Hoshanah Rabba) says “the voice of Tzemach… who is Dovid himself.” The Yefeh Anaf on Eicha Rabbah, 1:51, interprets that this concurs with the opinion that Moshiach’s coming will be after the resurrection of the dead.
          See also the Radak– Yichezkel 37:24 – And my servant Dovid will be King over them – Radak says it is referring to Melech Hamoshiach who will be called Dovid “OR “THIS IS A HINT TO TECHIYAS HAMEISIM”

          See also Radak – Yirmiyah 30:9 – And they will serve Hashem their G-d and Dovid their King – Radak says: Perhaps this is said on Dovid Hamelech who will get up from the dirt at the time of Techiyas Hameisim”

    60. So when Lubavichers rely on R’ Nachum Chernobler’s statement about the Besht returning as Moshiach as a proof, are they saying the L”R was greater than the Besht, who founded Chasidus!?

      • Lubavitchers don’t “rely” or need stories to prove their belief. For them their Rebbe is enough proof like you rely on your Rov or Rebbe. You read it on this forum that the Rebbe held his FIL, his Rebbe, to be Moshiach after his death. It’s actually a basic principle that talmidim consider their Rebbe to be Moshiach. So will you stop crtiticizing us and live and let live and go to the beis midrash and learn Torah.

    61. Interesting to note that the Ramban in his famous vikuach does not include the death of yoizel as a proof point. The reason of course is the 2 sources in Bavli and Yerushalmi that mimeisaya is possible. V’yesh lomar that the Yerushalmi is much more powerful because the majority of the chachomim of that dor say Moshiach is Dovid Hamelech even though they said it 1200 years after his petirah!

      (I’m aware of the Rebbe’s explanation of that Yerushalmi in Lk”s 35, l’fi shiyas Harambam, but that is not the opinion of the meforshim who explain it kipshuto, not like the Rambam and therefore a valid source and certainly not kfira ch”v.)

    62. (Reply to #270) I never read anywhere that the L”R publicly proclaimed his FIL as Moshiach while he was alive and continued doing so after his death. That is why I made the statement re R’ Nachum Chernobler. There is no mekor for the Meshichistic practice of publicly proclaiming the L”R as King/Messiah, since they did so in his lifetime. Where did the Rebbe endorse billboards, bumperstickers, doorsigns, yellowflags, yechi yarmulkas etc. and all the other messianic mania showing his deceased FIL as Moshiach? So why can’t you people live and let live and stop making an abject mockery of yiddishkeit, the concept of Moshiach and the L”R as well. As an example of living and letting live, I would cite an incident which took place the other night on Lag Baomer. A group of Meshichistim set up a van with loudspeakers and a video projector and set up shop a short block away from where one of the Boro Park Kehilos was having a major hadlaka. Now besides the immaturity of crashing someone else’s event, they were not living and letting live in the slightest. Big poster proclaiming the Rebbe as Moshiach handing out Psak Din’s re the rebbe’s Moshiach status, showing videos of the Rebbe on the side of a building etc. I repeat my earlier call to stop the madness, end the mania, cease the hysteria and desist from this messianic craze ASAP and return to normative chasidish yiddishkeit!

    63. (Reply to #270) I never read anywhere that the L”R publicly proclaimed his FIL as Moshiach while he was alive and continued doing so after his death. That is why I made the statement re R’ Nachum Chernobler. There is no mekor for the Meshichistic practice of publicly proclaiming the L”R as King/Messiah, since they did so in his lifetime. Where did the Rebbe endorse billboards, bumperstickers, doorsigns, yellowflags, yechi yarmulkas etc. and all the other messianic mania showing his deceased FIL as Moshiach? So why can’t you people live and let live and stop making an abject mockery of yiddishkeit, the concept of Moshiach and the L”R as well. As an example of living and letting live, I would cite an incident which took place the other night on Lag Baomer. A group of Meshichistim set up a van with loudspeakers and a video projector and set up shop a short block away from where one of the Boro Park Kehilos was having a major hadlaka. Now besides the immaturity of crashing someone else’s event, they were not living and letting live in the slightest. Big poster proclaiming the Rebbe as Moshiach handing out Psak Din’s re the rebbe’s Moshiach status, showing videos of the Rebbe on the side of a building etc. I repeat my earlier call to stop the madness, end the mania, cease the hysteria and desist from this messianic craze ASAP and return to normative chasidish yiddishkeit!

      • so because you had an incident with inconsiderate meshichisten you blame everyone using the same brush of loshon hora and motzi shem ra to smear decent Lubavitchers who believe the Rebbe is Moshiach but live and let live ? and your reasoning doesn’t click are you saying that those who didn’t make the claim that he’s Moshiach before the Rebbe passed away may do so now, is that like a knas? wow this is mamosh pilpula shell Torah.
        if you’re trying to say that once your chezkas you can never be chezkas again even after techiyas hameisim forward the mokor but please no filfulim..

    64. (Reply to #278)What are filfulim? Do they taste like falafel? You are misreading my remarks. I never referred to what people believe in their hearts, how would I know what anyone believes in their heart. By mentioning the incident with the meshichistim, I wasn’t trying to tar all Lubavichers, I was responding to your (I think it was you, if you would use some kind of name or pseudonym it would make life easier) comment re “to live and let live”, by showing that it’s the meshichistim that are not letting us live. Now regarding the Moshiach issue, I was not suggesting a knas nor did I bring any mekoros. Rather I challenged you or anyone to bring a mekor or cite a historical episode where the same individual was proclaimed as Moshiach in his lifetime and after his death by the same people. If there is no mekor, then the meshichistim are in uncharted territory fraught with danger, especially in the long term. I hope that neither this nor the following qualifies as pilpul. By the way I left yeshiva over 15 years ago, so how pilpuldik can I be already? Now even using the L”R’s referring to his FIL as Moshiach is not a mekor, since I don’t believe he proclaimed his FIL as Moshiach while he was alive. Even if he did do both, it still is not the same as what the meshichistim are doing since when he did it, his Chasidim had a live Rebbe to guide them, ma she’ain ken now. Maybe it’s for this reason many claim the Rebbe is still alive! So I stil call on the meshichistim to stop the in your face messianic mania, teicaf umiyad. May we be zoche to the Geulah Shlaima V’Amitis Amen Nesah Selah Vaed

    65. Rav Klein speaks the truth, boruch hashem there are still rabbanim who have the courage to publicly disprove of the mishichistins abnormal ways. I was on 16th avenue this lag baomer where lubavitsh had a video playing, and they tried to convince anyone willing to listen to their fantasies of the “FACT” the the rebbe is still alive and the levaya on gimel taamuz was just there as a cover for what really hapened to the rebbe, that he is alive and currently hiding in 770. how ridiculous!

    66. (Reply to #278)What are filfulim? Do they taste like falafel? You are misreading my remarks. I never referred to what people believe in their hearts, how would I know what anyone believes in their heart. By mentioning the incident with the meshichistim, I wasn’t trying to tar all Lubavichers, I was responding to your (I think it was you, if you would use some kind of name or pseudonym it would make life easier) comment re “to live and let live”, by showing that it’s the meshichistim that are not letting us live. Now regarding the Moshiach issue, I was not suggesting a knas nor did I bring any mekoros. Rather I challenged you or anyone to bring a mekor or cite a historical episode where the same individual was proclaimed as Moshiach in his lifetime and after his death by the same people. If there is no mekor, then the meshichistim are in uncharted territory fraught with danger, especially in the long term. I hope that neither this nor the following qualifies as pilpul. By the way I left yeshiva over 15 years ago, so how pilpuldik can I be already? Now even using the L”R’s referring to his FIL as Moshiach is not a mekor, since I don’t believe he proclaimed his FIL as Moshiach while he was alive. Even if he did do both, it still is not the same as what the meshichistim are doing since when he did it, his Chasidim had a live Rebbe to guide them, ma she’ain ken now. Maybe it’s for this reason many claim the Rebbe is still alive! So I stil call on the meshichistim to stop the in your face messianic mania, teicaf umiyad. May we be zoche to the Geulah Shlaima V’Amitis Amen Nesah Selah Vaed

    67. In the Baal Shem Tov’s famous dream on Rosh Hashannah he met with Moshiach and asked him, “When is the Master coming?” Moshiach replied, “When your Wellsprings (ie. Chassidus) have spread out to the furthest corners.” The Rebbe often said this meant “Chassidus in general, Chabad Chassidus in particular.” This whole “Rebbe as Moshiach” issue has distanced people within Chabad and especially outside of Chabad from the one thing we know the Rebbe really wanted – for everyone to learn the Chassidus he taught. It’s a real shame because his Chassidus overflows with true lamdus and Ahavas Yisroel. The Yechiniks should put away their flags, puff paint, and Rebbe pez dispensers and open up a maamar – not to find proof that the Rebbe is Moshiach, but to learn to be a humble, G’d fearing mensch. The Snags should stop their finger wagging witch-hunts and also learn a maamar of Chassidus (or a Rashi Sicha – they’re gevalt). It’s so obvious this whole situation was engineered by the Yetzer Hara (same rosh hatevos as “Yechi HaMelech”) to keep people from learning the Rebbe’s Torah. May we all turn our critical eyes inward, our forgiving eyes outward, and may we march through this darkness all the way to Yerushalayim to greet Moshiach – together.

    LEAVE A REPLY

    Please enter your comment!
    Please enter your name here