Jerusalem – Eda Haredit: Organ Donation Is Murder

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    Jerusalem – Following a Ynet report on the Chief Rabbinate’s decision to recognize brain-respiratory death, thus allowing organ donations in accordance with Jewish religious laws, the Badatz, the Eda Haredit’s high court, ruled that taking organs from a person in such a condition or removing him or her from life support is murder.

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    In an announcement published in the ultra-Orthodox organization’s journal, ‘HaEda’, the Badatz, headed by Yitzhak Tuvia Weiss reiterated the ruling that was given almost two-years ago, “in light of the Zionist rabbinate’s shocking seal of approval”.

    The announcement said, “We have already ruled and given a clear Torah judgment… that brain death or brain stem death are not defined as death, and if organs are taken from (a person in such a condition) it is murder.

    “We repeat that such a ruling already exists, and life support must not be disconnected, the person is alive in every way.”

    The Eda Haredit’s firm stance is in line with that of the mainstream ultra-Orthodox public’s position, as it expressed in the community’s Yated Ne’eman daily paper.

    An editorial published after the Chief Rabbinate’s ruling titled “Caution: Bloodshed” criticized the rabbis’ debate over the matter, saying, “There is no place of discussions or debates in this matter” and protested the fact that “Every student is allowing himself to give ‘educated opinions’ and present ‘halachic studies’ in the matter as they please.”

    The editorial said that paper would “continue to express the Torah and the halacha’s stance against these dangerous initiatives, as part of its role and its mission as a form of expression of the Torah world and the God-fearing public standing on the front lines of the struggle for the sanctity of life according to halacha.”

    Last month the Chief Rabbinate ruled that the Organ Donation Law’s definition of brain death at the moment of death is in line with that of the halacha. However, arbiter Yosef Sholom Elyashiv maintains his objection to the ruling, and views cessation of cardiac rhythm as moment of death.

    The Chief Rabbinate’s decision ratifies a ruling given by the council in 1987 on determining the moment of death. At the time, the rabbis ruled out organ donation after the medical establishment objected to having a rabbinical representative join the team that determines death.

    Now that the law has been approved, there is no concern that doctors may pronounce someone dead against halacha, and the rabbinate decided to introduce a new organ donation initiative, parallel to that of the National Transplant and Organ Donations Center.


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    160 Comments
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    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    It’s open dry halacha, I don’t need eda haredit to tell that.

    Aharon
    Aharon
    14 years ago

    B’H that we have wise talmidei chachomim on the Chief Rabbinate

    Dag
    Dag
    14 years ago

    So they can’t receive organs either, right?

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    I’d like to read comments from Yidden who are alive today thanks to an organ donation.

    Moshe
    Moshe
    14 years ago

    This is one of the reasons that Israel is not included in international organ donor programs and Jews have difficulty getting organs. Check R’ Moshe on this.

    torahyid
    torahyid
    14 years ago

    the rabbanut cannot be trusted on such matters that they have a negiah to conform the halacha to satisfy their funders – the state.

    Yaakov
    Yaakov
    14 years ago

    Isn’t this the Eida that boycotts Hadassah and did not let a burn victim go there last week?

    not so
    not so
    14 years ago

    I am not an halachic posek and will not pretend to be one. I do however know that such rulings are far from simple and given the fact that human life is at stake, one should not make such claims. Robby Berman head of Halachic Organ Donation has given much of his life to saving people and whether or not you agree with the halachic ruling, he has built his orgnaization upon the shoulders of many leading poskim across the spehere of chareidim, modern, etc, etc. Such terse comments minimize his work and dedication, and the rabbonim whose support he relies upon.

    Lawyer
    Lawyer
    14 years ago

    This is the view of the majority of talmidei chachamim. including quite a few MO gedolim. Rav Aaron Soloveichik, zt”l was adamant that what is today called “brain death” is not halakhic death and therefore, in his words, those who permit transplants based on brain death are “Matir Retzichah.” Rav Herschel Schachter paskens the same way.

    Seriously?
    Seriously?
    14 years ago

    So I’m sure all these Rabbis who say you can’t donate organs under such circumstances would never receive organs for themselves or their childrne/parents under similar circumstances. I mean there is no way these Rabbis would be be hypocrites right???

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Until they need one c”v themselves, and then they’ll even go to Hadassah hospital to get one…

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Yes Moshe do you have a clue what reb Moshe thinks on this or that reb Moshe himself says shalyos should not be paskend from his Sefer but should be askt on an indevdule basis by the way which great talmiday chachmim are part of the rabnut I’d love to meet them you here in America are do naive it boggles the mind

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    >>>>>>>>> While they can control what their own population does, the rest of clal Yisrael will ignore them on this.

    You’ve got it wrong, Starwolf. Those who take “lo sirtzach” seriously will not ignore this ruling which just reiterates the Torah’s stance that death is determined at full cardiac cessation.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    a Little bit of respect please write at least rabbi
    headed by Yitzhak Tuvia Weiss

    Robert
    Robert
    14 years ago

    i am not a rabbi but want to ask a halachic question respectfully and seriously

    during open heart surgery for example, during the bypass component when the heart is stopped say for 45min to an hour and their is no breathing either(spontaneous or via a respirator) is the person halachicly dead?
    (can a kohen be in the room for example)
    and when they restart the heart and respirator is that a resurrection of a dead person? i am asking halachically not medically..

    Tamud Chuchom
    Tamud Chuchom
    14 years ago

    Guys,
    You are all confused. It’s not a matter if the person will live or die anyway, the question is what does halacha say do any situation as these, is the person dead or alive? As you see its a big fite between tohra figures. The same is if the person breaths only on a resperator. You see that lot of poskim agree that one is not mchuyev to go on a resperator even if he can live a full year. BTW a person can have a baby if she is brain dead,however all this is emotion not halacha.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    On this matter, Harav Tendler, Shlita, is the gadol hador and is the only opinion that really matters to most orthodox yiddin. He is the son-in-law of rav Moshe, Z’tl the posek hador, and is the only rav with the knowledge of both the science and halacha to even be qualified to make such a critical psak. Thus. the views of the chareidi rabbonim is about as relevant as the views of my schvuger in such matters.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    These Eda Charedi can read Rambam’s medical books and cure diseases in their communities, but Israel needs to move forward with this organ donation nonsense. I’m pretty sure that if one of Eda Charedi’s “Gedolim” needed a new heart, they would rush him to Hadassa without objection, bypassing all of the huge organ waiting lists that exist in Israel today because some Rabbis do not have understanding of science beyond high school anatomy course so they are afraid to listen to science about brain dead = heart dead.

    formally
    formally
    14 years ago

    lets get real

    the Torah does not discuss in any shape or manner when a person in considered dead. The issue was not around at that time since they they did not have the medical knowledge that we have today. dead not dead is really a medical scientific issue.

    To Robert,
    some claim brain dead people have awoken and are living and walking to day. I think that is nonsense. As a doctor do you know of cases of brain dead people, recovering?

    The herideim, could be the most ethically and morally challenged people in the universe. They are always there to take, but almost never to give. Like, sure we need an army to protect us, but we will not let out boys sacrifice their life, you the secular sacrifice your lives to protect us .

    The same is here, if they feel so strongly about brain dead not being dead, they should say we do not to encourage this practice since to us it is murder. We will not participate in this evil practice. We will not donate or accept organ donation if is was attained through murder to harvest that organ>

    That would be the moral and ethical thing to do.

    But since herdiem are ethical changed they do not even see the hypocrisy of their action.

    Moty
    Moty
    14 years ago

    it bothers me that any time gedolim say anything its automatically met with cynicism, sometimes its tru they are overbearing but in this case it seems to me and rabanim ive asked that this is just modox rabbis cowtowing to peoples needs with less regard to torah than sounding like good people. its torah umadda not madda utorah, remember which one takes precedence. if u look at the rabbonim that hold of organ donation, they are all quite left wing in their theologies overall, and i would not feel comfortably paskining from what they say, regardless of their biological knowledge, i care about torah knowledge! btw to #59s haskamh that hes r moshes son in law, R’ Moshes OWN SON r david feinstein has stated that his brother in law is matering retzicha, and i would hardly call r dovid feinstein extreme!!!

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    tendler is not a shomer torah umitzvoth so his opinion on halacha is worth what my opinion is about medicine. I learned in yu and left when he told us at a purim party in 1992 that hashem really wanted to give torah & science at har sinai but moshe rabbainu wasn’t big enough to receive both so he gave him only the torah which was the one moshe would have an easier time understanding. I realized on the spot that if this was toras moshe I would have been better off remaining “under the mountain” & left yu never to return. such a heretic has no place in israel and his memory should be blotted out forever.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    So when Rabbis like Dovid Feinstein accept halachic organ donation, that counts for nothing? Let’s see what you think if you need a liver or kidney.

    Moty
    Moty
    14 years ago

    Also, btw to all of u who r saying “well what if u needed an organ donation?” thre is no issur against taking an organ, fakert, if u dont ur probably a poshea with your own life, but taking an organ to save your life and giving an organ before your dead are 2 very different things, theres no issur of hanah on a goys liver, my rebbe’s father in law got a liver, how do u think he got it? but that does NOT mean that you can give

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    This is such a delicate subject, because it shows that human life and the holiness of the guf has all degenerated. In one way, it’s wonderful that so many innovations have been made in the saving of life, but it is, in a way, at the expense of another human’s life & dignity. I understand the rulings of both sides of rabbanims’ paskening one way and also the other way. Let us pray that we have the Geula Shleimah b’mheira b’yameinu and never again will such things have to be. Years ago, when this was first introduced into the world, most g’dolei hador, etc. would not even contemplate agreeing to such desecrations of the body, but maybe with so many tzoros over the last years befalling so many yidden, that there is no choice. May every yid who needs one, have a Refuah Shleimah and never need the help of man, but only from Hashem!

    Lawyer
    Lawyer
    14 years ago

    “the Torah does not discuss in any shape or manner when a person in considered dead. The issue was not around at that time since they they did not have the medical knowledge that we have today. dead not dead is really a medical scientific issue”

    The gemara in Yoma, which is Torah she be al peh, discusses this at length. So you have no clue what you are talking about.

    And it is certainly NOT a “medical scientific issue.” Science can simply describe what is taking place clinically. A person who is “brain dead” still has some basic life functions, although less than a healthy person. But he is hardly a piece of dead wood with no biological functions at all.

    When a person is no longer considered “alive” is a moral and ethical issue, and for those who believe in the Torah, a halakhic issue. The Torah has several issurim — los sirtzach, shefichas damim and pikuach nefesh — which depend on there being a “human life”. That is precisely what is discussed in Shas and Poskim.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    I love the way people say chareidim are becoming isolated from the rest of am yisroel, that is the ultimate compliment, what the torah spacificlly tells us to do. there is nothing said in the torah as many times as the warning to keep away from evildoers, (check it up), & chareidim is a title that transelates people that are scroupulos about ALL that the torah says, so baruch hashem we can be isolated from what you call the rest of am yisroel. every yiddishe parent has always tried ti isolate his children from bad influence, B”H AS YOU SEE IT WE CHAREIDIM HAVE SUCCEDED!

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    The headline is very misleading. The Eidah is not against organ donation. Nor do they consider it murder. What they are calling murder is killing someone to take the organ. There is a machlokes what is halachic death. There are very strong proofs that brain death is NOT considered halachic death. If in factth\brain death is not halachic death, and many poskim hold that way, then there is no difference killing a healthy person and it is full fledged murder.

    And I guess the Eidah is machmir on murder, more so than others. Just like so many other halachos.

    As far as medical ethicist, there is a well documented story with Dr.C Everet Koop, the former Surgeon General of the US publicly saying that the most knowledgeable person in medical ethics was R Moshe Feinstien. This occurred after a case that Dr.Koop was the surgeon and R Moshe was the Rov being consulted. The true medical ethicists are the moreih horoah.

    formally
    formally
    14 years ago

    according to the peole who say it was done already so I can take the organ.

    By that rational I can buy stolen goods since the crime was already done. Or, if a product was made with slave labor, like during WWII you would have no problem buying those good since the product was already made.

    A lack of morals on your part

    formally
    formally
    14 years ago

    also, as far as know the excuse it was already done, is not true. So you are the cause of murder

    Organs aren’t taken if recipients are not waiting for them. A brain stem dead person will not have his heart taken if a suitable match for it is not located first – even if other organs are harvested for other recipients.

    formally
    formally
    14 years ago

    question,

    lets say one fills out they want to be a donor. However, what happens if that person goes brain dead, but the parents say no, since they claim the person is not dead yet.

    what happens

    Professional
    Professional
    14 years ago

    Many academic neurologists will acknowledge that in a significant minority of patients labelled ‘brain dead,’ parts of the brain are still alive. The hypothalamus, an important part of the brain, is often still functioning. The phrase ‘brain death’ arose when those who were doing transplants realized that using this phrase might exonerate them from charges of murder (read EVERY SECOND COUNTS: THE RACE FOR THE FIRST HEART TRANSPLANT).

    The large majority of major halachic authorities reject ‘brain death’ as halachic death. The list is too long to include here, but includes: Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach ztl, Rav Waldenberg (Tzitz Eliezer) ztl, Rav Aaron Soloveitchik ztl, Rav Yosef Soloveitchik ztl [notwithstanding what the so-called Halachic Organ Donor Society claims], and yb’mch’lch Rav Elyashiv and virtually every haredi Ashkenazic posek., including Rav Zalman Nechemiah Goldberg [again, not as claimed by H.O.D.S.]. The position of Sefardic poskim is more diverse.

    This is a matter of life and death and potential murder.

    To insinuate that a posek who does not have an academic degree in biology is disqualified from paskening such questions is ridiculous.

    starwolf
    starwolf
    14 years ago

    The fact that some posters show a lack of respect for Rabbanim with views other than their own, starting with a refusal to use their titles, and finishing with their stating that those Rabbanim are not “not a shomer torah umitzvoth” (post #70 , quoted by Milhouse) is a beautiful example of sinat chinam. Of course, motzei shem ra also comes to mind.

    What this behavior does, of course, is cause further divisions among Am Yisrael, lessening kavod Morim (if it is ok to say that about a Rav, who is to say it is not ok to say that about any Rav with whom one disagrees?). One really has to wonder what kind of behavior would be more anti-Torah and anti-clal Yisrael.

    Since this type of behavior is all too common among certain elements of the hareidi community, they should not be too surprised when their messages (which contain a lot of good) are not well-received among the nonhareidi community (including the shomer mitzvot community). After all, one can hardly demand respect for the Rabbanut when those demanding such respect routinely libel and slander other Rabbanim.

    Had people like anonymous posters #70 and #115 put any effort into understanding Masechet Avot, they would realize that.

    Recipient
    Recipient
    14 years ago

    Let me put this argument in proper perspective for all of you. I would not be alive today were it not for an organ transplant from a “brain dead” person. So, let’s take a deep breath and understand the implications of this argument.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    reply to #125 , he trangresses the first or the ten commandments 24/7, & on a more public note “Es Mikdoshi Tirahu” (most of us do avairot privately & then are ashamed, we don’t blast them over the web) sorry there are more mitzvot than the mitzva of being dan lecaf zechut – which isn’t even a mitzva & definately doesn’t apply to reshoim, see how rambam & rabbainu yonah explain the mishne.

    starwolf
    starwolf
    14 years ago

    Of course, the bottom line is that the new law is the law of the land. And, like it or not, Bnei Brak is still within the land–and the law applies to all hospitals within the land. Perhaps soon we will have an additional law–those that don’t donate–don’t receive–or at least their priority is much further down the list. Enough people here support it.

    Those who are completely sure that the medical system in Israel (and other places) participate in murder via this law should show their commitment to their ideals. They can always go elsewhere, where medicine is practiced according to their particular Rabbanim. Except–they cannot. They have nowhere else to go.

    The Eida Hareidit can continue to rail against organ donation–and nobody will pay any attention to them at all. Just as when they railed against Hadassah hospital. Their mindless followers boycott (at their own and their childrens’ expense)–and their leadership continues to patronize Hadassah. Eida Hareidit indeed. More like Eida Hypocrite.

    starwolf
    starwolf
    14 years ago

    Shmuel: it is a hallmark opinion of Hareidim of your type that someone who knows secular subjects cannot be a Ben Torah, nor excel in Torah knowledge.
    Wrong.

    And yes, if one does not learn a particular subject, one is ignorant about that subject, no matter how much Gemara he has learned. You do not go to a Rabbi for pediatric advice.

    So, a Rav who has never studied biology, anatomy, or physics–how can his psak about brain death, which is dependent on all of the above–be compared with that of a Rav who has studied all of those topics? And yes, such a Rav would have studied Torah as well. The Modern Orthodox world would say that obviously, knowledge in a given field is necessary to give a psak halacha about that field. Someone of your caliber, however, seems to feel that that is not the case, and as usual, when called on the logical implausibility of his position, relies on the old standby of your hashkafa (from Post 158): “shows what apikores you are”.

    As far as my reading comprehension, it is fine. It is somewhat taxed when reading posts in which spelling, punctuation, and capitalization are complete strangers.