New York – DAF: Did the Amoraim Know Every Posuk in Tanach?

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    tnchNew York – Our Gemorah (Bava Basra 113a) discusses the issue of removing a family inheritance from the family. The Gemorah questions how a certain Braisah knew to understand the verse to apply it to a prohibition on the husband and not to the son. The Gemorah answers that the word “yidbeku” indicates that it applies to a marriage situation. The Gemorah then points out that both verses have the term “yidbeku” and the proof is dismissed.

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    Tosfos (Tarvaihu) points out that there are times when they are not Bakiyim – fluent in the verses in Tanach and he cites a proof from Bava Kamma 55a where an Amorah is asked why it does not state “Tov” in regard to the first version of the Ten Commandments. The Rabbi responds, “Before you ask me that, ask me first if I am fluent in what it says in the Ten Commandments.”

    The words of the Tosfos, understood simply, are rather shocking, to say the least. Is it conceivable that those in the Gemorah were unaware of basic words in Chumash?

    One of the Meforshim explains that the intent is not that they were not Bakiyim (fluent)– rather they were not medakdekim (careful in wordings). He cites a proof in that the term “at times” is incorrect when using the word “fluent.” Either one is fluent or one is not fluent – it is not subject to at times.

    Perhaps another explanation is that Tosfos may not be referring to Amoraim at all. Perhaps Tosfos is referring to an occasional Makshan or Tartzan in the Gemorah, and the quote of the Amorah is imputed rather than a direct quote of what the Amorah actually said in response to a question. We often find that the Gemorah has imputed quotes such as what the Amorah might have responded to a certain question rather than what he actually did respond with.

    Great Roshei Yeshiva have differentiated the obligation of a Yeshiva student in explaining a Gemorah’s hava Amina between a quote of an Amorah and a hava Aminah of a Makshan. Often there is no need to delve excessively in a hava aminah of a makshen, but one must always do so when it is a quote of an Amorah. Granted, sometimes it is difficult to tell when it is a makshana and when it is an actual quote, but the premise is something that is well known.

    By the same token, we can perhaps explain Tosfos’ words only in application to an occasional makshan and not to the Amoraim. How then do we deal with the quote of the Aseres HaDibros from Bava Kama? One would have to answer that it is illustrative rather than a lack of knowledge on the AMorah’s part. Indeed, Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky zatzal in his “Emes L’Yaakov” deals with this in Parsha V’Eschanan. There he writes that the intent of the Amorah was that he did not know which exact words were actually said at Matan Torah as opposed to written on the Luchos. He explains that the account both in Yisro and V’Eschanan are a mixture of what was written in the dibros and what was recited aloud – neither of them being uniquely one or the other.

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    Fallsburg Lamdan
    Fallsburg Lamdan
    14 years ago

      Rabbi Hoffman: R’ Reuven Margolies the Baal Mechaber Margulies Hayam says in his sefer (i think) Hamikroh Vehamesorah that the meaning of the Gemarah is That the Amoirah knew what it said in the Passuk but he didn’t know what it said on the Luchos. meaning the Torah didn’t neccesarily write the exact letters that it said on the Luchos itself. ein shum.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Excuse You! Every Word And Kasha In The gemara Was Included By Ravina and rav ashi And Was Given To Moshe On Mount sinie, What Audacity To Imply That We Dont Have To Delv In To Them Cuz It Was Just A ‘Makshan’.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    To Anonymous:

    Its nice to see that you’ve made your own shitta on this. Don’t speak before you know how to learn.

    Yisroel Simon
    Yisroel Simon
    14 years ago

    Excuse me, but not every word in the Gemorah was put there by Ravina and Rav Ashi. The time period of the Rabbanan Savurai which came after Rav Ashi and before the Geonim have a lot of their comments and editings placed in the Gemorah, usually in the beginning of each Masechte. There seems to be a few places where even sages from the early Geonim have gotten their comments placed in to the actual text of the Gemorah.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    “What Audacity” B’michilah, I don’t understand how you can speak about another
    jew like that let alone a Talmid Chachchom. Even if you think he is mistaken calm down and get off your high horse.

    I do understand your Kasha Why don’t you email Rabbi Hoffman Shlita directly. I am sure he would be able to explain.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Even Rabbi Hoffman writes that it is impossible for them not to have known psukim. Just how do you read this tosfos #2 ?

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    I agree Moshe was a navi. But the machloikes and sefeikus in gemareh couldent have passed his pen. The end of day there wouldn’t have been sefeikus if the navi had his stamp on it