Israel – A halachic query directed at Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv illustrated the dire situation of ultra-Orthodox parents in a financial bind faced with meeting their children’s wedding costs.
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A yeshiva student from Jerusalem who is about to marry his daughter asked the distinguished Lithuanian rabbi whether he could sell a kidney in order to purchase an apartment for the young couple, and was naturally denied.
Haredi weekly paper “Mishpacha” reported Thursday of a rabbinic conference held in Jerusalem last week regarding the cutting down of wedding costs in which Rehovot Rabbi Simcha Hakohen Kook spoke of the strange question posed at Rabbi Elyashiv who had told him of the matter.
The Lithuanian spiritual leader, who was mortified at the financial state reached by the yeshiva students’ families, said that instead of seeking wedding and wedding-related funds, they should be cut back considerably. The rabbis who organized the meeting are devising a plan to address the problem.
Rabbi Kook also expressed a concern regarding charity loans which currently support many families in funding their celebratory occasions.
An additional speaker at the conference illustrated the severe state of affairs by describing a man who could not meet the financial obligations of a young couple, who consequently reached a state of “pikuach nefesh.” He also related the story of a yeshiva student who had just gotten married and sued his father under the Jewish law for similar circumstances.
The speaker said that Rabbi Yehuda Leib Steinman had told him that those who encourage young men to make financial demands of family members were “murderers” since they induce brides’ parents to jeopardize their health and future.
Head of the prestigious Yad Aharon Lithuanian yeshiva Rabbi Yehoshua Eichenstein claimed that many fathers who are “scholars” leave the Beit Midrash in order to seek funding for their undertakings. He claimed that the situation must be changed immediately.
they should all go to work and that’s it.is it ossur to work or what?i mamesh don’t understand what’s going on!!!
How about get a job?
Didnt think of that one huh? Get a job? Save up? …In the words of Ali G,
“Responsilibity”
Excuse me…. did the children who need the Apartment, ever heard of the word “work?” My Father Z”L bought me zilch, and I never expected anything from him but his unconditional love. If you need an apartment … go out and get a job.
Assuming that the story is true (and I’m not so sure), I don’t understand the reasoning..
The person was willing to part with his kidney so as too help buy his daughter an apartment, but not willing to part with it in order to save another Yid’s life?
Let them get married in a Rav’s office with 2 eidim. Meshulachim come to my door on a daily basis from Eretz Yisroel for money for a chasunah. The money that they spent for a plane ticket should more than cover a wedding — herring and schnappes. Selling a kidney to fund a 5 hour affair that has nothing to do with the rest of the couples’ lives???? To buy an apartment for children? This makes me want to throw up. You can live with one kidney only until that one fails, not to mention that it’s illegal.
I heard of some folks giving an ‘arm’ or a ‘leg’ to meet expenses, but I never heard f a kidney….That person probably has only half a brain….IMHO
“The speaker said … those who encourage young men to make financial demands of family members were “murderers” since they induce brides’ parents to jeopardize their health and future.”
If there are “murderers” here, they are the people who tell the young men not to work but rather to seek money from the brides’ parents. The blame squarely rests on the shoulders of the leaders. A leaders’ conference that does not recognize this is clearly a sham.
About time someone realized that this is an issue—-
expose those roshei yeshiva who tell the boys to demand an apartment-and if you’re really shtark, you get two. One to live in and one to rent out.
This is not a joke.
“A yeshiva student from Jerusalem who is about to marry his daughter asked the distinguished Lithuanian rabbi whether he could sell a kidney in order to purchase an apartment for the young couple:”
What I find astounding about this article and no one seems to have commented upon is that apparently it is the FATHER who is the impoverished “yeshiva student” lacking the funds to marry off-his daughter who apparently is also unemployed. Why isn’t the father working. Presumably, the chasan is also an unemployed bochur since there is no mention of him, C’V paying for his own apartment and starting a family. So the father has no parnassah and is presumably on welfare and his children and son-in law also have no parnassah. Why are the charedi rabbonim focused on halacha governing the sale of his organs. Why not simply issue a psak saying: “NO MORE MARRIAGES, until the chasan/kalah go out and get a job and are able to support themselves or they have support from the parents who are working. This culture of multi-generational dysfunctional families needs to stop somewhere.
Please understand that in Israel there are no decent jobs for the charedim. The secular do not permit Chareidim to get good jobs. The only way to enter college is to go thru the army. Even though the charedim would go to the army, however the army heads missionize their constituents and force them to become secular as well. So the 18 yr. boys are thrown to together with women, trief, chillul shabbos… The only thing left is to drive a taxi for minimum wage. What do you expect them to do? WHo can live off of minimum wage? Can you?
Yom rishon avodah, yom sheyni avodah …. So simple even a yeshiva bochur can chap it.
Im ein kemach, ein Torah. Im ein Torah, ein kemach.
Hello? There are a ton of working families in Israel (probably also around the world) who cannot afford the wedding, let alone an apartment. So please don’t be judgmental of the ones who are in kollel. They are NOT the only ones who cannot provide an apartment. Plenty of working parents are taking out loans they really cannot afford to pay for the basics of a wedding. There is a MITZVAH of hachnassas kallah. We should all be giving generously, according to our ability.
to # 1 2 & 3,
dont be so moronic please! dont throw out the baby with the bathwater! of COURSE nobody should make unreasonable demands on prospective fathers in law, nor indeed demand a hefty price for their supposed genius, as the article outlines. if one wishes to ‘stay in learning’ for however long, one should be prepared to undergo some sort of sacrifice and mesirus nefesh for the privilege if necessary.
At the same time, as an ideal, if one is able to support ones son/daughter/son in law, of course one should do so. Just perhaps, that is the only reason Hashem gave you the money in the first instance? who is really supporting whom?? we will only find out in the Olom Ha’emes, when the holiday that was foregone is a distant memory, but the Torah that is eternal continues to provide Zechusim and protection for many generations.
whilst happy to condemn the supposed excessive demands made in some cases, lets not join the mindless ‘go get a job brigade’ as if that was tachlis hachayim!!!
I think Elyashiv’s psak was based on the fact that the average Hareidi couple has 7 children but only two saleable kidneys. Still, you do have to wonder at a culture where selling one’s organs seems like a less drastic measure than actually obtaining an honest job or imparting a marketable skill to one’s children.
the father works, sometimes the mother too, and they still cant make ends meet
‘The Lubavitcher Rebbe’s Memoirs’ should be required reading for every man getting married. That would solve the problem (in short, it ilustrates how all the nistorim would conduct their lives in the 1700’s, and the huge talmidei chachomim used to refuse parental welfare and used to live off the ‘sweat of their brow’ and sneak in learning during work, and before and after work. The wives would help as well.)
To #10
The issue really starts with education. Charedi schools do not devote sufficient time to secular studies so that even if charedim do go to the army, they still don’t have the tools to take the college entrance examination since at 21 since they have the secular education level of a 12 year old. Rather, they have to take special courses just to be able to take the bagruyot exams (for college admission) which wastes more time. By the way, there is the Nahal Charedi as well as special all male programs established by the Air Force, Navy and Intelligence geared specifically towards charedim who display the proper desire and acumen to be admitted. It is always easy to blame everything on the other guy. Admittedly, the avergae Israeli is not all embracive of the charedi community, but the velt does nothing to improve themselves and their issues aside for lobbying for more government handouts and knocking on peoples’ doors for money.
why when he made that psak did he not say that anybody buying a kidney from an improvised goy that is also murder and should be assur. Murder is murder.
The is a whole different mentality in the frum community when it comes to young couples getting married. A secular or non Jewish couple the girl is happy with a very small diamond and is happy she is getting married, no so by a frum couple the girl needs a rock so she can show off to her friends. A 1/4 or a 1/2 caret would never do in the frum community in general
I know since I was in the business at one time.
The whole culture needs to be changed.
As one rebbie told us in anger one day, yes in Yiddish, the world owes you nothing because you are learning in yeshiva.
To bad more rebbies do not say that
If I recall correctly, the Rambam said a man should plant a vineyard, build a house and THEN get married. The Gemara says teach a child a trade (“to swim” otherwise it is as if you have killed him.) Perkei Avos Perek Bais Mishna Bais says Torah without work leads to bad things. How did our community go so far off the derech as to make these basic Jewish ideas as if they do no exist?
I find almost all of the responses (perhaps save #15 ) highly distasteful. There is clearly a problem, both in Eretz Yisrael and Chul, of people not taking the responsibility to work and support their families. However, the amount of Torah that is being learned in Eretz Yisrael is extraordinary and beyond anything that was for the past 2,000 years. Clearly a balance must be struck. However, bashing those that are willing to live a true Torah life and be devoted to Limud HaTorah is absolutely wrong. Perhaps the boys and girls need to be educated in the Rambam’s statement of “those wanting to acquire the crown of Torah need to eat bread and salt, sleep on the floor etc.” In this way, their lower expectations and small material needs would allow them to acquire the crown that is so elusive for most.
One of the things a father much teach his son is a trade. If I recall correctly, some consider this a d’ohraisah. It seems to me that Chareidim are ignoring halachah as they see fit because they think one mitzvah is more important then another. As if they would know.
got no prblm helping cover the wedding & as yiden we most help em, but what does bother me is the apartment?….. I love bumping in these people in shul or at my door crying they need money for their 7th kids wedding & apartment, while I’m 10 yrs renting apartment and not dreaming of buying…. tel me ppl am I even alowed to give him my money???
The israelis are out of control. I have them knocking on my door all day. This is BS hachnosas kallah. When I got married I rented an apartment. This is total crap and out of control. Only in israel do you get married and have assets. Its mamash a chutcpa that these people have to go and collect under the guise of Hachnosas kallah to buy an apartment. We should asser all hachnosas kallah in isreal untill this situation changes.
“instead of seeking wedding and wedding-related funds, they should be cut back considerably”
Why is it that not ONE of these great Rabbaim talked about the staggering costs of our children being in their Yeshivas? What exactly should “they” be cut back on? Food? Rent? The car if they’re lucky?
Not every student can learn all day, some need to work. How is it that all these great Rabbaim tell those of us that donate whatever money we can, that our donations are as important as the actual learning done by these wonderful Yeshiva boys? How about counseling these boys that perhaps their time for learning is at a later time, when they can actually afford it? The financial picture is bleak ALL over the world. I know first hand from the administration of the yeshiva high school my son attends that those who at one time were major donors are now coming with their own hands out. True, we need to evaluate our expenses and perhaps of taking those expensive Passover vacations or driving those Mercedes or other expensive cars, we take stock of what is necessary versus what want.
I hope everybody realizes that the problem is created and artificial.
It is not a question of affiliation, even though the shameful practice of a frum person living off others can not even become whitespread in some groups — BECAUSE they can’t afford it even to start; but look how it is not (yet) a US problem. Even tbough it’s growing.
Our leadership(???) Is creating the problem that he tries to solve by telling people to not have a normal wedding.
Tell them to work for the money, spend what you can afford, live a life of Torah veAvodah (pun intended).
We should stop telling our sons they are a talmid chacham just because they refuse to work and stay in yeshiva.
Oy, ma cheye lanu?
Please stop blaming the guys, the girls want nice weddings just as much as the guys, even more.
There seems to be a common agreement here that even Elyashiv should be supportive of. First, ALL of these boys and girls should learn a trade, even if they want to continue learning torah. There is room for both and some balance in their lives is necessary. Second, reduce the costs of the wedding and rent an apartment until they can afford to buy just like 99 percent of the rest of the world does. Third, if they and their familes are truly destitute and have NO MONEY, than defer the wedding rather than begging from others.
a few months ago everyone here was defending a jewish kidney broker (some kidneys fetched 160k) who paid the donor 10 k..
the defense was always you are saving a life,,
so why cant they sell it now to save a life and pocket some cash?
i dont undertsand
please don’t see me. it’s against halacha. thak you in for following the halacha.
I got married over 15 years ago and nobody helped me. Been working ever since and still renting with a bunch of kids. I sympathisize with an impoverished Choson and Kallah because of my own bitter experiance. On the other hand I never would have dreamed of asking my parents or inlaws who themselves are poor, to help me pay for any of my expenses let alone sue them for not being able to do so. All I can say is helping a Chosson and Kallah and not just helping but enabling them to be besimcha and helping your poor neighbors is a Chesed that probably will buy you Olam Haba. I still feel after 15 years marriage as though I did not fully get married because I was so lacking of basic neccesities that everyone else takes for granted and it is painful.
Frum people can go to a Hesder Yeshivah. But the ultra frum and the Casidim don’t have a military option. Perhaps Belz, Mir and Ger can get together and open a ultra frum Hesder Yeshiva. This would give an opportunity for there children to live a normal Israeli life.
You can get married in a Rav’s den also, did they ever think of that?
This news is very disturbing. What kind of frume Jews would even consider such actions as selling a part of themselves or children suing their parents. For whatever reason under the sun, it is inexcusable for such insane demands and especially for religious people who should definitely know better. All they are are Jews who are ritualistic and go by rote, rather than having Torah knowledge and common sense.
“… those who encourage young men to make financial demands of family members were “murderers” since they induce brides’ parents to jeopardize their health and future. “
This statement was so ill-conceived. If people take this statement seriously, all that will happen will be that the boys will marry other girls and leave even more girls unmarried. Without changing a mindset, nothing positive will happen.
The real problem is the Israeli chareidi community’s mindset. Except for the elite learners or those who have independent financial means, the Rabbonim should encourage most bochurim to train for a parnosso and not expect others to support them. The apartment, the chassan’s gold watch, the kallah’s bracelet, and all the other mishugassim need to go away.
“The real problem is the Israeli chareidi community’s mindset. Except for the elite learners or those who have independent financial means, the Rabbonim should encourage most bochurim to train for a parnosso and not expect others to support them.”
Granted, but the problem is that” Daas Torah” has painted itslef into a corner. This will eventuallly play itself out with the pendulum swinging gently the other way or possibly a total collapse of Emunas Chachomim as many people wake up and see what blind adherence has wrought. Or possibly a combination of both. The current leadership is unable to backdown from their position because of the alleged superiority of it’s Derech. The time will soon be right for new leadership ideas to step in. (Of course, that new leadership may or may not have the correct answers, and it’s views may be accepted simply because it offers hope). Hopefully the lesson that moderation in life & humility is important will be part of that new package.
Either way, there are and will be thousands of Korbanos. Hashem Yerachem.
if you sell a father’s kidney for the the eldest and the mother’s kidney for the 2nd; what do you sell for additional children? In a large family, you could sell some of the younger children into slavery. This will ease the burden of renting gowns for them and the cost of a place setting for them at the wedding.
Simple question: Why in the world do parents (-after having raised, fed, educated and clothed their children into adulthood)- buy, buy!!! their children an apartment to live in!!!!
How ridiculous is this? This is crazy!
I come from a very large family. It would never ever dawn upon me to obligate my parents to pay for ANYTHING related to me after my marriage!!! I felt so grateful to my parents that they provided for me up to marriage, and even paid for a beautiful, if modest wedding.
As their child, who loves them dearly – I would NEVER EVER be able to sleep ONE NIGHT if they did paid for more.
It makes absolutely no sense. The twenty year old is the young one and the strong one, the one with his entire future ahead of him.
How could a Jewish child filled with love, respect and compassion for his parents, impose this demand?
I for one, was grateful enough that they were selfless enough to bring me into this world, and to care for me to adulthood, and to raise me to a mentch.
Just this Shabbos, my daughter & I were discussing the “hachnasas kallah” fad. We both don’t understand the concept let alone the discussion surrounding it. I guess the discussion is necessary due to the serious lack of basic understanding in our generation. Same story with credit cards. People really believe the credit card companies owe them something because the companies paid their bills for purchases they couldn’t afford to buy in the first place and now can’t pay the balance owed. Amazing. Simply amazing.
To the father who wants to know if he is allowed to sell his kidney to pay for his daughter’s or son’s wedding…. I say, sell both of them. You can’t tell your children to go to work? Sell both of them…..
Spending money you don’t have or shneuring money from other yidden to pay for a nice chassanah and an apartment for a chassan/kalah is the biggest chillul hashem and does not suggest good mazel for the couple who are married under such a cloud. As so many other posters have said, have a simple low cost ceremony, rent an apartment or simply WAIT until you have the money.
this problem is only going to get worse. do you know why? its because 30 years ago parents started the whole learning mishugas. some boys decided they were talmedei chochomim and their wives families should have to support them. that was able to be done back then as the parents of that generation worked. then came the learners who didnt work or worked minimally. now their kids are of marriageable age and who can support them? the grandparents are old and tapped out, probably remortgaged their homes to keep shtupping money and the parents dont really work. the new marrieds dont want to work either. give me, get me, buy me. i need, i want, i must have.
as someone else posted…the kallah jewelry, the chosson and kallah silver and teh 900 dollar strollers.
something is very wrong with this picture.
Sell his kidney for an apartment for his son?!! He needs a psychiatrist, not a psak. Suing parents for support money.?!! What type of crazy world do we live in? Who is brainwashing these kids?
There are several factors involved in the problem. Firstly, even a working man will not be able to marry off all his kids on a normal wage. That is the case outside EY as well. To suggest limiting the number of kids because of that is not only going against daas Toira – the poskim state that it is going against the Toirah itself.
WRT renting vis a vis buying – that is not something the religious community instigated: it was a deliberate decision taken by the Israeli govt when the state was founded to make sure that apartments were bought and not rented. They knew full well that someone with real estate will not run at the first threat of war. Only a few years ago a prominent philanthropist almost concluded a deal with the Israeli govt to build a new haredi city – until the govt learned that he intended to let the apartments rather than sell. The deal fell through immediately.
Thus, even if there were sufficient jobs available, those two factors alone are sufficient to give rise to the vast number of needy cases. There are several more but space and time do not permit
The father coyldnt sell his brain as he obviously doesn’t have one. But here’s the solution folks.marry as many of the poor sods as possible in one big gigantic chasunah like the moonies lehavdil. Massive savings one band one caterer one photographer and enough herring and eir kichilich and shnapps for everyone.let’s call it simchas l’evyonim.
I married a wealthy eye-surgeon’s daughter and my kallah and I made sure the wedding was very modest. The engagement ring I bought her was less than $100 and, 15 years later, I haven’t managed to replace it. we both work and we’re pretty heavy in debt, so I have no idea how all these frummies do it!
You know why he wanted to sell his kidney? Because he’d already pawned his brain.
Chazal set the standards for funerals. They should do the same for weddings. This is disgusting and abhorrent. These people are acting like Hindus, with their obscenely sized dowries and huge weddings. Furthermore, let these slackers get a parnasa like the rest of us.
“The speaker said that Rabbi Yehuda Leib Steinman had told him that those who encourage young men to make financial demands of family members were “murderers” since they induce brides’ parents to jeopardize their health and future.”
Oh great; another reason for the kanoim to hate R. Steinman.
The kollel system is so very problematic – and I personally rejected it and learned a trade and got a real job. However, I still support a kollel, as well as a poor family who is the victim of the “kollel lifestyle” – the father is now a janitor…since he never learned any trade. My question is…. am I helping to perpetuate the system ? Obviously i need to support the poor family …. BUT is it ossur for me to give money to this kollel if I have not done adequate due diligence to make sure the kollel is creating real value to frum society ?
Let me get this straight.He is willing to go under the knife and lose a kidney instead of just telling his son to actually………………..GET A JOB AND BE RESPONSIBLE!