Brooklyn, NY – Avi Fishoff: Yeshiva Systems Needs Major Overhaul

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    Brooklyn, NY – A well known and respected voice in the world of at risk behavior is calling for a drastic change to the religious education system, observing that the one-size-fits-all approach taken by many yeshivos is failing a substantial number of students.

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    In an 18 minute video, Avi Fishoff of TWiSTED PARENTiNG noted that in the post-war years, the educational system focused on producing students who could reinvigorate the Torah world by building yeshivos and other communal institutions.

    Having successfully created that infrastructure, Fishoff said that the time has come to prioritize maximizing the potential of each child instead of encouraging every student to become a long term learner, a goal that leaves many feeling like failures.

    “Otherwise we will have a majority of our children leaving the yeshiva world feeling like they are not a success, the hatzlacha that they were meant to be, which is false, and the result of that can be disastrous,” said Fishoff.

    Drawing on his own educational career in a highly regarded yeshiva, Fishoff recalled that he was well aware as a child that he was not a top student and that the school staff looked down on him because of his performance. The idea of every student being able to learn for 10 to 12 hours every day is as unrealistic as expecting graduate to become a lawyer, said Fishoff.

    “People who go to work to support themselves should not feel bad that that’s ‘nebuch’ the life that they have,” said Fishoff. “Like in the yeshiva where I grew up they said ‘grubbe balabatim,’ grubbe balabatim they called us. 85 percent of those who graduated, maybe more, ended up being balabatim and we all felt that we are not ehrliche yidden.”

    Click here or below, to watch the full video.


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    58 Comments
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    samuelhigh
    samuelhigh
    4 years ago

    Powerful, and not heard such truthful words in a long time. Thank you Reb Avi.

    4 years ago

    Hey Avi what’s your take on smelly nebachals who are not cool off the derech kids rather maybe they are good learners who are a bit off socially? Is anyone caring about them or do we wait till they have a break down and become even more disfunctional and then maybe otd or not ?
    Can we start something to help people who are not ” cool” or not ” fun” to help bec they are smelly and wierd? These are the true forgotten ones on society. There is enough out there for the cool otd guys .

    epic-ny
    epic-ny
    4 years ago

    Sorry but he is dead wrong. There is nothing wrong with the yeshiva system. The problem is with the parents. Today there are many types of yeshivas on all different levels. One should choose what is right for their child, not one that fits their social status. To blame the yeshiva that you chose is ridicules.

    There are yeshivas that promote Torah learning, there are yeshivas that promote working, and there are many yeshivas in between. Sending your child to a Torah learning geared yeshiva and complaining that he is the working type is like sending your child to law school and complain that the school is teaching law and they want their child to be a doctor.

    Let’s get real and stop trying to throw the blame on others. If your child is not a good fit for the yeshiva he is in, pull him out. Place him in the yeshiva that is a good fit for him. Who cares what his brothers were like, who cares what the neighbors will say, who cares of the family image. Care about your child, do what is right for him. The one-size-fits-all approach in education your children is wrong.
    This is all the parents responsibility not the yeshivas.

    ralph1527
    ralph1527
    4 years ago

    He’s a little too late !!!!

    4 years ago

    Our kids are leaving our way of life in droves! Just like it was, back in Europe! All, owing to our current educational system! Well said, Avi Fishoff. Unfortunately, I don’t believe anything will change until there is no house without a corpse. The pain is unbearable! And, all of the wonderful “mechanchim”, will be held accountable for what is happening in our time. I have no doubt!

    4 years ago

    His point is well taken, but will produce backlash from those who are indoctrinated into the belief that chinuch as it currently exists is the holiest since Matan Torah. We witness this in Comment #3. The difficulty is that the Torah provides ample guidance of how to conduct chinuch, and much of it is missing in today’s system, or minimized to the level of ineffectiveness.

    When you tell me that one can trash חנוך לנער על פי דרכו because it is not economical, I laugh at the humor of it, and cry for the tragic spiritual deaths that result from it. When you talk about producing gedolim, I react the same way. It is an impossibility. And Klal Yisroel will always be unique in that the individual parts of it are not identical but we get along together with achdus. The cookie cutter approach together with the grandiose goals are not Torah approved. Just study Hilchos Talmud Torah and the many relevant Divrei Chazal.

    To Commenter #3. Your instruction is fantasy. The pulling your kid out and getting him in elsewhere is unrealistic. A large percent of such kids will be without yeshivos. Rav Shteinman ZT”L opposed this exclusivity in yeshivos and called it “Gaavah”.

    4 years ago

    I’m in my late 40’s and most of us were raised by mechanchim and/or parents who were ego driven so the change that has the happen will happen very very very slowly. Hopefully, there won’t be too many bodies.

    ELEPHANT
    Member
    ELEPHANT
    4 years ago

    We live in a society that you get stigmatized for anything you do outside of the so called norm.

    4 years ago

    As a rebbi in a yeshiva ketana and a parent of a number of children who didn’t make it past mesivta, I can talk from experience. Rabbi Fishoff your heart is in the right place but I’ll tell you why nothing will change. First of all at what grade level do we tell a parent that your son doesn’t belong. Unless a child was diagnosed as learning disabled and he has to go to Ichud, ptach or Chush etc. not one parent will ever take their child out of a mainstream yeshiva ketana (Grades K – 8). The only plan for weaker children is to have a resource room, but there are problems with this too. Mr Fishoff are you going to start putting children into specialized yeshivos for mesivta. I can tell you from my experience this is where the biggest problems begin. Children who are accepted by a school that took them in because no one else wanted them feel like failures from the start. to be continued

    4 years ago

    Another major problem that I saw with all my children was, when they went from a regular yeshiva to a level 2 mesivta there are two types. There are yeshivos that wanted to be a regular mesivta but along the way they got stuck with level two kids. Then you have Rebbeim that really want to help these kids they make a level 2 yeshiva but to run the programs that these kids require cost thousands of dollars. Tuition in some of these types of yeshivos are almost $30000. There are many children who manage to go through the system but at the end of the day, your child is friends with a level two kid and often it’s not a proper friendship. Then if your child makes it to a Bais medrish level you have the problem of finding jobs. There are those who give jobs to these kids. One of my sons was B”H very lucky he got hooked up with a good boss and now many years later he is successful but many others treat these kids like I’m doing you a favor and the kids end up going from one job to another. Hashem should help everyone should find success in all their endeavors.

    4 years ago

    Commenters 5 and 6 have got it right. The fallout of the one system fits all is heartbreaking. There’ll be hell to pay.

    Gersey
    Gersey
    4 years ago

    I grew up in Boro Park BC ( Before Chasidim ). There was basically three choices, Etz Chaim, Toras Emes, and Beer Shmuel. Nobody frowned if the kids were out playing stickball or basketball, mixing from one yeshivas kids with another. It was a wonderful time, and I thank Rabbi Chafkin, rabbi Geldwerth, and Rabbi Wolf. Rabbi Schwartz, a lover of mussar, taught us all to respect other people, even the goyim, and encouraged Dr. Morris Mandel to try to get the most out of every child. Torah values were and are important, but we are not all cut from the same cloth, and someone needs to work to pay the bills.

    woodmerejoe
    woodmerejoe
    4 years ago

    How will a society continue to exist with everybody a bench warmer?
    How will a society exist with men who sign a ketubah and fail to support their families?
    Avi Fishoff is correct in his assessment of the warped society as it now stands

    hashomer
    hashomer
    4 years ago

    I had the misfortune of teaching in several yeshivot. The ONLY things that mattered was total conformity and rote learning 8+ hours a day. Dress alike, look alike, think alike. The yeshivot system is designed to produce the next generation of gedolim conformists, not thinkers who can think for themselves and function outside of the yeshiva system. That’s 1 % of 1 %. Everyone else must scramble to survive and somehow make a living. Its what you’d expect from a system created 400 years ago and unchanged since. If one yeshive tried to change the failing model the gedolim would heap scorn and ridicule on ir.

    4 years ago

    Some of these posters should perhaps go back to yeshiva and learn mesechta Baba Basra 21a. Our current educational system did not begin in some shtetel in Europe 100 years ago. It began at the end of the second bais hamikdash thanks to a person Yehoshua ben Gamla. see the whole gemara there.

    FBF37
    FBF37
    4 years ago

    Totally agree with Avi here. So many problems.

    To those commenting above true for boys there are more options available where parents can choose what is best for their child. What no one has pointed out is the girls schools there are not such many options. This is serious problems with the girls education system. I won’t even discuss the amount of homework these girls have.

    I also do not not like the system where a Godol today depends on your Yichus. What is the point of all this learning if your last name does not fit the special few?? You will never become a Gadol. Crazy!

    ADaeh
    ADaeh
    4 years ago

    25-30 years ago a chinuch asufa called by one of the geodilm Boro Park all the Chasdish Mosdes participated and the Chairman was a Menhal from one of the largest cheddars in Boro Park the topic was that there is a crises and unless the parents start teaching the children yires shamayim we will end up with future generations that will be O.T.D

    My sons went to the Cheder where the esteemed chairman was Menhal.
    When my oldest son was 8 years old he learned more than 1 amed gemera a week, and hardly knew the ivre never mind understand anything so i asked follow parents does your kid know the gemra the answer was a resounding no.

    I met with the menhal and asked why dont u learn less, and make sure they understand and feel how sweet and enlightening the torah is instead of them feeling depressed and hating the torah which in turn leads to no connection to torah & mitzvot, his answer i have 5 good students In every class (they had 3-5 parallel classes of 27-30 students) and the entire class learns how much they can handle and it is up to the rest of the class to chase them

    Unfortunately 25 30 years later students are less and less afraid to tell the menahel i have other options

    4 years ago

    So to add my 2 cents… I learned ina very respectful chasidash high school that taught in a high level gemorah. I bring an A student attended this good Yeshivah. Ina class of 30 buchrim there was about 7 guys that excelled in the learning that we called “TOP” bucherim. And then the rest, me included where just average. Struggling to keep up. Reason being that this type of learning wasn’t my interest. And yes I got the message implanted that I’m average. Not an A student not the TOP. Years later Im learning now daf hayomi with tons of reshonim and I’m eating up every word and completing Iyh Shas in 2 years. I’m suddenly an A student. I’m the top guy. Reason being: I found my love of Toreh that I enjoy.i wish the school I attended Gabe me the option for this type of curriculum. Point being EVERY BOY CAN BE MADE FELT TOP STUDENT. IN A TOP SCHOOL. just make available different lemudim. Torah is so vast. Why are we only teaching this one and only mehalech. And either your good at it or not and then avaade you’ll be shvach. I hope I made my story clear.

    moshelieblich
    moshelieblich
    4 years ago

    Rab Avi was not trying to bash the Yeshivas and he definitely did not intend a full Yeshiva bashing with this video, I think the message was that the yeshiva system will always have weaker boys and it’s their job to find ways to make them feel comfortable and accepted. Just because a boy may not be the smartest boy in learning doesn’t mean that he needs to feel like second class. The reality is that a boy who isn’t a excellent learner will feel like a failure and feel like he has no part in Klal Yisroel, we are hurting so many kids… There are hundreds of stories about the greatest Gedolim that were sensitive to every single bochur and made them feel accepted and wanted, Avi also sees first hand the pain that so many kids go through that want to do well but struggled a little, I know from experience that you can have quality learning and at the same time treat a weaker boy with dignity. And there would be nothing wrong with a Yeshiva having different levels of learning, the Menahalim can’t be afraid of ruining their name or the name of the school if they cater and love every single boy….

    Yaakov2
    Yaakov2
    4 years ago

    What are the facts?

    We can’t be in denial of the facts.

    Kids going OTD are no longer a rarity, as it was, many years ago.

    Sadly, now it’s the new norm, happening in virtually every single Mishpacha, r.l.

    Ask around every single one of your freinds.

    I chalenge you to find me even just ONE familly in all of Klal Yisroel, who does not have at least one member in their immediate or extended Mishpacha, who is not yet OTD!

    If OTD was something very rare, you could blame it on parents perhaps. But if every single familly of all of Klal Yisroel, every single one is affected, how much worse must it get before we finally wake up and smell the coffee?

    Can anyone in the right mind, even imagine that each and every familly in all of Klal Yisroel, are all “bad parents”?

    Each and every one?
    You really think so?

    Where did each and every OTD child come from?

    What’s the common denominator?

    Yes you guessed right!

    Each and every OTD child came from the very same system!

    EVERY OTD child CAME FROM OUR Very Own YESHIVA SYSTEM!

    Is this epidemic a coincidence?

    What would the CDC say if masses of children, attending the very same school, masses of them, ALL get the exact same identicall sicknes?

    It has “nothing” to do with the school?

    Really?

    A mere coincidence?

    If you still really think so, then let me ask you, to change the question around, the opposit way:

    Suppose large numbers of those attending Harvard, masses tend to turn out to be the world brightest and the smartest, highest acheivers ?

    Is the Harvard outstanding performance, also a mere conicidence?

    Or is the product, which they produce,
    by design?

    Perhaps everyone coming our of Harvard is so great not because Harvard is a great school but because of the parents?

    Let’s not give credit to Harvard.

    It has nothing to do with Harvard.

    It’s only becsuse of “the parents”.

    You can’t have it both ways.

    If when huge numbers children are high acheivers, the school gets the credit?

    Then when huge numbers, students, “mysteriousrly”, they all trun out OTD and
    every other day the news media reports yet another frum suicide, (hushed up as an “accident”), the same schhol, must also get the very same “credit” for THE product which they produced.

    OTD is not a rare thing. It happens every single day, and this product is output by design, out of each and every Yeshiva, and affects each and every Mishpacha.

    It’s not a mystery.

    It’s not an accident

    When our Yeshiva succeeds, it does so by design, and likwise when it produces OTD and Suicide, its the exact same design and the credit falls on the exact same shouldets of this who run it.

    “It’s an ACCIDENT WAITING YO HAPPEN”

    We “hush up” all frum suicides.

    And we “hush up”, our shame, of the system which produces OTD by its very design.

    Take your head out of the sand.

    Wake up and smell the coffee.

    Don’t wait to give a sigh, at the Shiva Call of the frum suicide victim.

    We can no longer say
    ידינו לא שפחה את הדם הזה

    We all know the truth, but we hush it up, to not blame those who run our system which produces this product BY DESIGN!

    Let’s all make sure, that the upcoming Shabbaton for Mechanchim, will no longer pretend that “it’s not their problem”…..

    Yaakov2
    Yaakov2
    4 years ago

    It’s the same mistake in almost every Yeshiva.

    Picture a class of 30 students.

    Teacher gives a test

    How many do you think will get a 100 on the test?

    How many will get a 70

    And how many do you think will get a failing mark?

    Those who are not at the top of the class, will always be the majority.

    Only a small minority will get 100 on the test.

    The majority who get lower marks or failing marks, don’t get that because they aRe “not so smart”. They don’t need “a different school”. A different school would be the same failed system only at a different address.

    The non-high acheivers ate not stupid, they just don’t feel turned on by a system, whete management doesn’t care about the heart of the child, only about the ego of the school to show off how smart their fop students are.

    The children didalusioned by Yiddishkeit are not the stupid kids. They are the smart ones.

    Only the smart ones, see right through the mere ego of the system management, selling them a mythic pie in the sky to become a so called “godol”.

    Why would anyone want to pursue a goal to be a so calked “Godol”?

    Besides the fact that it’s not even realistically possible, that every student of 1000 students in school become “godol”.

    In truth not even 1 in a 1000 will be, so they are selling them a lie which can never happen.

    But even if it could be, it’s all for the EGO to be called BIG

    What registers in a child’s mind.

    My teacher doesn’t care about Hashem that I should grow up to be a frum Yid.

    My teacher cares only to feed his ego and my ego.

    So what does the child walk away with?

    Hashem? Yiddishkeit? Being a Yid?

    No
    My teacher taught me very well.

    My goal in life is to feed my ego.

    As an OTD I can get a much more realistic much bigger ego.

    And if I can’t?
    Then I can get off at the next highway EXIT.

    The next Exit is Suicide.

    4 years ago

    Avi is the leading expert in this field. The Law is like him in this area period.

    Crazykanoiy
    Crazykanoiy
    4 years ago

    It’s always easy to blame the system. It’s much harder to create a better one. There is nothing really brave about calling out others. Try making something better if you can. The reality is that there are many successes in the system and there are also failures. Failures come about for many reasons and it is simplistic and wrong to blame it all on “the system”. For what it’s worth the yeshiva I attended never referred to “grubbe balle batim” neither did the Yeshivos that my kids attended. The reality is that schools and Yeshivos are academic institutions and that includes an emphasis on classwork, tests and academic pursuits. However, to claim that it is one size fits all is pure nonsense as anyone who is aware of what has transpired in schools and yeshivas over the past decade or two is well aware of the incorporation of differentiated learning and the plethora of therapists, counselors and social workers that are now employed by almost all frum schools to help those that struggle succeed.

    4 years ago

    Avi has been so helpful in everything he teaches. He never encourged us to blame or get bogged down with what is wrong. The whole focus is what can we do to help now. Things can change and get better if we have emunah and follow the teachings of our Rebbeim and Tzadikim who had true Ahavas Yisroel. Ask the parent who avail themselves of Avi’s advice. Their kids do get better. If everyone, parents, mechanchim and menahalim take Avi’s workshop we will be in a much better place. Each child is precious. We can’t let any be thrown out on the streets. Its up to parents and schools to take responsibility. Not one or the other it has to be both to work well.

    4 years ago

    The Yeshiva system today stinks stinks !!!
    From every class there is 3-4 kids who are interested in the deep kind of learning all other kids don’t know what’s flying …..
    When will the גדולים stop with the BS of smart phones again and smart phones again ? Or if the skirt of the women is a inch to short ….STOP being busy with SHTUSIM….. and let all the big RABBIS get together and start making change in the way we learn in Yeshiva ….. the TORAH can be sooooo sweet if u package it in a way that the average and Weaker kids can enjoy it …. why not learn CHUMISH ??? Isn’t there enough מדרש to make it interested ??? Why not learn משניות ??? Wouldn’t the boys feel accomplished by finishing מסכת after מסכת ??? Why not focus on הלכה ??…. so many kids ( 98 percent ) have no clue !!! No clue how to doven with הלכה …..clueless when to take out there 4 ציציות….. isn’t הלכת שבת big enough ??? These kind of learning will make the boys RUN out of bed with out an alarm clock …. no one will have to wake them up !!! Listen CLEAR “ NO NO “ boy today’s days enjoy learning 3-4 BLOT a week ….. those days are gone gone ….. and the side affect of these kids is …. the second they don’t feel satisfaction from the corrupted type of learning they automatic run to SHMUTZ that is sooooo easy today’s days to find ….. and who can blame them ???? Yes your child ( even u think nah nah my child ???) yes your child has a hidden smart phone where he watches dirty clips when u are fast asleep !!! Ladies and gentlemen wake up and smell the PROBLEM

    4 years ago

    Again all you guys keep on harping about OTD and ‘at risk ‘ kids. What about kids who are not cool yet from troubled upbringings? Its cool to help a kid who is OTD and fun. Do you guys know how many are out there who are yesomim, kids from divorced homes etc.. who are socially awkaward often due to their upbringing, maybe a bit unkempt?

    Why is everyone ignroign that issue? name one askan willing to help out those kids? Why is an OTD’s kid blood more red than a nebach smelly yosom? And FYI the OTD kids read thru it too. We have to start treating all kids equal. Don’t snob out nebachales.

    Crazykanoiy
    Crazykanoiy
    4 years ago

    So if a kid dislikes fasting six times a year, likes to hang out with girls like any other teenager in the world, and finds watching movies more exciting than gemara it is all the fault of “the system”. Get real and stop the nonsensical belief that teachers are responsible for every bad decision that a kid or adult makes. Our teachers should be lauded for all those that they inspire to overcome temptation and lead a true life of avodas Hashem.