By Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com
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Rabbis of large shuls are not happy. The reason for their unhappiness has to do with the continuous rise of the Kiddush Club. A Kiddush Club is when people walk out of shul before the Rabbi’s speech or before the haftorah – in order to make kiddush on wine or schnapps and socialize.
The proliferation of Kiddush clubs is so great that there was article about it in Newsweek during the summer of 2004. There is even a Wikipedia entry on the subject. After a definition the article notes:
“The practice was criticized by the Orthodox Union (OU) in December 2004, when the OU called for the elimination of such practices. OU Executive Vice President Rabbi Dr. Tzvi Hersh Weinreb criticized “Kiddush Clubs” for detracting from the honor of the synagogue, promoting gossip (lashon hara), and leading participants to return to services in a state of intoxication (which are violations of Jewish Law), reducing decorum, and enabling the problem of substance abuse.”
Aside from the five points Rabbi Weinreb mentions – there is the sixth issue of Kavod HaTorah – the honor of Torah itself – namely – the Rabbi who is giving his drasha.
KAVOD HATORAH
Although we know that there is nothing greater than the study of Torah, we find something fascinating in Meseches Megillah (3b). There it states that kavod haTorah – honoring Torah is greater than limud haTorah – the study of Torah. If a Talmid Chochom dies on Purim we eulogize him even if it will mean that we will be unable to hear the Megillah!
The Derech Chaim on Pirkei Avos 6:3 demonstrates clearly that Kavod HaTorah is greater than the honor that must be given kings.
Rav Ovadiah Yoseph zt”l notes that in our generation (Yechaveh Daas VI #49), Kavod haTorah has already fallen ten flights down.
The Rosh explains in Nedarim 22b that even after the Beis HaMikdash was destroyed women continued to go up to Yerushalayim on the three regalim in order to hear Torah. Even though they are exempt from Torah study they went up because of Kavod haTorah.
The Gemorah is filled with illustrations of people who did not exit during a Torah discourse to use the facilities and suffered medical repercussions based on this. The reason that they did not leave was because of Kavod HaTorah.
In recent years, many shuls have reacted in different ways to kiddush clubs. Some have tried banning them altogether. This has had mixed results. Since many of the participants are from the more powerful members of the congregation, the Rabbis have had a hard time eliminating them.
WHAT THE WIVES SAY
One woman interviewed for this article asked: What message does the kiddush club send to their own children, the Rav and the community? The drasha of the Rav could a great source of inspiration for the husbands. If they miss that one opportunity – where else will they get chizuk?”
Another woman said: “I worked so hard to get my son to shul. When he arrived – the seat was empty. Where was his father? At the Kiddush club!”
HISTORY OF THE KIDDUSH CLUB
As far as the history of Kiddush Clubs – it is not so new. A responsa Sefer called Yefeh Nof that was written by Rav Moshe Yitzhak M’zia (1530-1600) states as follows:
About the custom of the bachurim on Shabbos to leave the synagogue after the Torah is removed from the ark to drink whisky before mussaf, is this permitted?
Rav M’zia answers:
If they do not sit down for a meal this is permitted because the law does not follow Rav Huna who prohibits tasting prior to mussaf.
At the time, however, Rabbonim did not give drashos – so only Rabbi Weinreb’s first five points apply.
We can conclude with an interesting vignette. There was someone who had walked out of the shul to where the other men were making kiddush. This time, however, someone began to berate him:
“You don’t come here to daven! You come here to drink and to talk!”
This vignette would normally be unremarkable, except for the fact that the person doing the berating was the shul’s Hispanic custodian. The story is not apocryphal – it genuinely happened.
The author can be reached at [email protected]
We are wired for connection and the shul provides this for us. That’s why picking the “right” shul is as important for us as picking the “right” neighborhood to live in.
If Rabbi Weinberg is upset about the lack of kovod hatorah which is a valid point then he must ask himself (or any Rabbi for that matter) what are these people missing on a spiritual or emotional level that they need these clubs? Banning just doesn’t work but understanding and working from a place of trust, love and positivity does.
Since when is a shul a tavern or bar? The only reason there should ever be a kiddush in shul is when it is a celebration of an event. Simchos are wonderful. But Rabbi Dr. Weinrib was not discussing that, and simchos are not kiddush clubs. The difficulty is that kiddush clubs are antithetical to Shabbos Kodesh, and similarly antithetical to the existence of a shul. The custodian was 100% correct. We have deteriorated to where we allow a shul to represent an opportunity to alter one’s state of mind with a chemical, and are willing to defend this disgusting practice. This a terrible shame, and it is a cancerous disease. I am not a rov. But in my shul, I would disallow any of this. If this alienates mispallelim, too bad. Those who value their liquor more than Torah and Tefiloh have no place in my shul. I would rather have a minyan that is sparse but focused on kedushah.
Every Shabbos Mevarchin, our Rav makes a mishebeirach for those of us who avoid talking during davening. Perhaps at these other shuls, the Rav should add a mishebeirach for those who don’t walk out in the middle.
If you got to shull to drink and talk where do you go to daven?
The other side is, “How many men go to Shul more often than they would because they know they’ll get to have a few shots and see friends?” For many people I know it’s a big impetus to go. They wait until the “Best” (considering) time to leave while still Davening with a Minyan.
The answer is obvious. Shul is too long and boring, the rabbis speech is not engaging, and grown ups will do what they choose.
If davening lacks meaning, people wont do it. We have been indoctrinated with the need to “say” davening. There is a burden of saying many many words which most people dont understand, and when they do, there isnt enough time to actually reflect on their meaning. This erodes the deep meaning and connection to Hashem that prayer should have.
I can guarantee that The Avos did not ever “say” davening. They spoke to their creator from the heart regularly instead of reciting paragraph after paragraph of words they didnt understand.
No one will ever dare get up and say, “tefila is too long, lets pare it down and actually say some meaningful stuff instead.” This is the tragedy of our times, where no gadol is ready to do something important for the klal that would be controversial.
Most people mumble their way thru davening, to the point where the mind just wanders the whole time.
If adults choose to go out Of shul and drink, there isnt much anyone can do about it, going to shul and behaving properly is a personal choice.
Also,
You seem surprised that a hispanic custodian is capable of noticing what goes on around him on a weekly basis. Thats odd.
I
As BillyW sateted, there is a social aspect to going to Shul for many people. I do not drink and do not condone “club” activities. I will state that in my weaker moments, the companionship tips the decision between going and not going on those cold,snowy weekday mornings.
As the article says “At the time, however, Rabbonim did not give drashos – so only Rabbi Weinreb’s first five points apply.”
Maybe that’s the reason?
Stop giving droshes, daven normally and we will stay and not schmooze.
in my shul, they have a shnapps EVERY DAY. disgusting. and teenagers watch.
I go to Shul to daven. I go home afterwards to my family to eat our seudah. If someone only goes to Shul if there will be a Kiddush, they are mindless robots who are far far away from the rebono shel olam.
Prospective Member: Rabbi, how many people Daven in your Shul?
Rabbi: Around 85%…..
If the only reason to attend Shul A vs. Shul B is to be social first and praying is secondary then of course the ‘Kiddush Clus” plays a major roll. But, if praying more important then socializing then there is no need for a’ Kiddush Club’ , or any club for that matter.
I know many people who try a shul and never return ‘because they were not social’ or ‘not social enough’.
That is the wrong criteria for choosing a shul.
You can’t really blame the young generation for the lack of knowledge how to choose a shul if that is what they saw as they were growing up. Neither can you blame the younger generation for excessive alcohol consumption if that is what they see at home. Especially those that have these fancy rolling carts loaded with thousands of dollars worth of liqueur.
Who are these “powerful men” who cant be stopped? I once heard the tzaddik Rabbi Forst say, come Simchas Torah, and every man in shule wants to dance with the Torah, who says the Torah wants to dance with them? Perhaps they can take out the shnapps and chulent pot and dance with them? In the end, He who honors Torah, Torah will honor them. He who keeps Shabbos, Shabbos will ‘keep’ them etc.
Davening can be faster, possibly fast enough to stop the mind from wandering. I daven in a frum minyan which goes for 90 minutes Shaboss morning, with a few words speech.
I am impressed with weekday Mincha at a big shul on Rodney street in Brooklyn. The repeat is super speedy with every word heard.
We have an after davening Kiddush club.
We’ve had a Kiddish Club at the YISI at our Shabbos 8:00 Minyan for over 12 years. After davening is over, we sit and learn for about 10 minutes. We then set up, make Kiddish and enjoy our dips, chips,herring, cookies, and other goodies. We also chat about our week and current events. We’ve had many guests tell us how nice it is and how impressed they were on how we did it; giving respect to our davening and laining. Our club is comprised of about 16 individuals who all feel that this is the way to do it.
Rabbi Hoffman, as long as these Kiddush clubbers continue to fill the pockets of these shuls and their respective morah d’asrah, the rabbi is reduced to giving lip service only. These rabbis look the other way as their pockets grow.
It is disgusting to watch fellow congregants get high on hard liquor at a Kiddish, or even at a simcha. What is the difference between that act, and goyim consuming large amounts of beer at a baseball game or other sporting event, and acting loudly? Also, in this day and age, when we have to be extra careful of our surroundings, to walk home from Shul, while being high from liquor, is very dangerous. In addition, it is very dangerous to cross a street, while being intoxicated.
Get rid of the mishebeirachs. That is a total time killer. It’s not even kavodik. Get the aliyah, make your bracha, and move on. Also at the end of mussaf, there should be ONE kaddish, not a new one every 5 seconds!!! Btw, one says kaddish for a parent for 11 months, not 18 years straight! Why are the same people saying kaddish their entire lives?! Stop being matriach the tzibbur!