Chareidi MKs Incensed As Bill Banning LGBTQ Conversion Therapy Passes In Knesset


JERUSALEM (VInnews) — Israel’s fragile coalition was thrown into disarray Wednesday afternoon after a bill submitted by opposition member and Meretz leader Nitzan Horowitz calling for the banning of the use of conversion therapy passed in the Knesset by a majority of 42 to 36. Members of Blue and White voted against the coalition and in favor of the controversial bill.

The legislation would revoke the licenses of psychologists who practise conversion therapy and fine them and even jail them for repeat offenses.

Charedi MKs were incensed by the treachery of Blue and White and shouted “shame and disgrace” after the bill passed. The Haredim were also angry at the Likud for allowing Public Security minister Amir Ohana, a confessed homosexual, to vote in favor of the bill and not ensuring that the bill would be rejected.

Blue and White decided to support the bill shortly before the vote. “We promised and we upheld,” tweeted Defense Minister and Blue and White leader Benny Gantz. “Conversion therapy was born in sin and its place is outside of the law and the public norm. We will make sure that everyone, from every background and sexual orientation in Israel will have free choice and security in their identity.”

In response, UTJ announced that it was halting all cooperation with Blue and White. A number of MKs addressed Blue and White leader Benny Gantz, stating that “You will not be prime minister.” Shas MKs left the Knesset plenum fuming and said that they would refuse to participate in any Knesset votes until further notice.

UTJ MK Yaakov Asher said that “It was expected from a party that claimed to be a ruling party to act responsibly and not on whims and revenge, certainly not on issues concerning the most sensitive aspects of Judaism. This is a categorical violation of the coalition’s mutual commitment. It is impossible for Judaism to be held hostage in the struggles and mutual revenges of Blue and White and the Likud.”

Housing Minister Ya’acov Litzman also spoke out against the approval of the bill, saying “The rotten conduct of Blue and White against coalition discipline is a challenge to the political partnership with them. The Likud must decide whether it knows how to run a coalition or whether it is losing itself politically.”

The UTJ party declared that “the law which passed harms the sanctity of the family and represents a clearcut violation of the coalition agreement. The support of members of Blue and White for the law has harmed the trust UTJ placed in their party. We are halting all cooperation with them from this moment and we call on community leaders and Chareidi heads of local councils to abstain from any cooperation with Blue and White representatives.”

In the past, The Israel Psychological Association has spoken out in the past against conversion therapy.

“The considered treatments were not found to be helpful, and they could cause real damage,” the Israel Psychological Association said in a paper quoted by Horowitz at the Knesset in June. “There is no place for any treatments that is based on the assumption that homosexuality is a disease or disorder requiring treatment, or for any treatments that places for itself the goal of changing sexual orientation.”

Conversion therapy could lead to “mental damage, including anxiety, depression and suicide,” the association said. “Other possible damage includes isolation and social withdrawal, difficulty making intimate and sexual connections, avoiding social connections, harm to religious belief, anger and distancing toward parents.”

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  1. To bad, so sad. I believe that most people in the medical world say that LGBTQ+ conversion therapy is dangerous. It leads to depression and sometimes suicides.
    Those wonderful people that are LGBTQ+ are born this way. It is in their genes.
    I wish that the discrimination of the LGBTQ+ community would stop.
    As for the Chareidi MK’s, I wish they would remember that Israel may be a Jewish state, it is not governed by Halakha.

    • Those wonderful people that are LGBTQ+ are born this way. It is in their genes.

      Nonsense. made up lies.

      NO LGBTQ were born that way. Where do you go up with this? These are excuses to rationalize their sins. This against our torah. Being gay is an abomination. Please don’t find me some random tzitz elizer or some other teshuiva taken out of context to twist to your liberal crooked mindset. The fundamental of our religon is, that men are born with free choice. Noone is born a sinner. This is what our cheder reba taught us. If you sin you are guilty no ifs ands or buts. Performing gay acts are an abomination and unacceptable. No excuses. You are NOT born that way. You are born with free choice. Now some people are given bigger yezter haras in certain areas or tested in different ways. Your test may be that you have a desire to be gay and that’s your life struggle. but you were not born that way. Its up to you to fight it and not sin.

      • You may be “educated Archie”, but this post contradicts your chosen appellation. Your opinion, contradicts the facts, plain and simple. Also, don’t judge people until you have stood in their place.

        • Wrong the facts are what our torah and drs teach us.

          Re judging people, I would never judge anyone and say “they are bad” people because they sin. I equate being gay with infidelity. Both are very strong yetzer hara’s, Some people are tempted and have different ytezer haras and sometimes life’s facts on the ground tempt people. I do not judge anyone that commits either crime. Many have discredited those that sin with infedility, including ostracizing them. There was even a wealthy indvidual who got ostracized from the community for it. I don’t judge him. The yetzer hara and temptation is strong for these things. This is for some the hardest challange esp in this generation. Who is to say I’d never sin if tempted.

          I hope that was clear about “judging others”. However, it is a sin and just like we were not born with genes that tell us commit infedility we are not bron with genes that tell us commit gay acts. Its a tavia like anythng else. No judgments though

      • Mr Archy, I did not know you were a doctor.
        Religion is very important, but here, in the secular 21st century, some people. including me, do not blindly follow laws that were written down thousands of years ago. I very much resp
        I know that there are positions on opposite sides of the question, but as for me, I believe in the majority of the medical community.
        I have great respect for Jews. In fact, I am in charge of security at a Jewish institution. I will not name that institution, because then you will know who I am.
        I value your very firm belief in the Torah. I just wanted to place my opinion out there.
        We will probably not agree on most subjects, but I like to read your posts.

        • The dr’s are full of it. Its nonsense and unproven. Its not like medical tests where you can clearly see X=Y. Its baloney theories.

          “do not blindly follow laws that were written down thousands of years ago”
          Well then there is nothing to discuss. You are a reform jew and we don’t reckon with your opnion. Our Torah was written thoysnads of years ago but it was written with prophecy and its the word of hashem. It one of our ani mamions. We do not change the torah one bit. reform jews say its antiquated.

          Glad you believe in the “majorty of medical community” against our torah. they do not have a torah to follow . And they make things up as it suites them.

          • how about a little respect for people with whom you do not agree? It is your choice to follow your beliefs and I respect you for it, but don’t condemn or belittle anyone else for their beliefs. live and let live.

          • “Educated Archy” (sic), I guess I missed the part in the Torah where it says it’s forbidden to oppose fake medical treatments that are proven to be harmful. Perhaps you can provide a reference.

          • Sebastian, or your ten other names

            Start with respect for others by not spamming VIN.

            I do not respect others who state opinions against pure holy torah . No respect is necessary for kefira. We even have kofer who claims our torah CVS is antiquated. On a frum news site? Shame on him. Reform jew.

          • Dan,

            Notice I don’t debate whether the therapy is effective. I suspect like with many things its a mixed bag. I suspect that most people object to it because the therapy has the notion that LGBT is bad and wrong. The starting piint is that one who is LGBT is a sinner. I suspect thats why many object. I only challange the notion that one is not a sinner and that one is born with it. I don’t challenge the opposition if its due to ineffecitve therapy that just causes pain.

      • I don’t know anyone who chose to be homosexual. Most would not have chosen to have those desires. It is far from some simplistic view of biology: it’s either XX or XY.
        When you say “no one is born that way” you simply contradict the vast majority of studies and personal accounts that report those feelings from a very early age.
        Orientation is certainly not as simple as free will.
        I’m not saying that the actions are mutar; I am saying that there should be a bit of rachmanus for their suffering and an attempt to understand the difficulties they face.

    • “I wish they would remember that Israel may be a Jewish state, it is not governed by Halakha”
      If it’s not governed by Halacha, what makes it Jewish??

      As far as conversion therapy, unwanted LGBTetc. desires can also lead to “mental damage, including anxiety, depression and suicide, isolation and social withdrawal, difficulty making intimate and sexual connections, avoiding social connections, harm to religious belief, anger and distancing toward parents.” Let people have a choice!

    • Depression and suicides exist among this group anyway at higher rates than among the general population (so there’s really no basis for blaming it on conversion therapy). That, unfortunately, is the nature of people who suffer from psychological defects.

      (That they’re born that way – assuming that this is true – is of course neither here nor there, any more so than, say, the fact that someone born with Down syndrome is more prone to heart defects. We don’t blame them for it, but we don’t pretend it’s not the case either.)

      • Sure, Qs are born with wigs and makeup in their hands…and the rest of the sicknesses are not inborn characteristics for 99% of these mentally sick LGTBQs who were/are indoctrinated by the media and entertainment industry and so-called educators in school since preschool, and repeated nonsense by so-called “health officials”.

        This entire society is sick at its core with immorality and no responsibility and these issues are self-made. Dont blame Hashem for LGTBQs sickness. I see this all the time, people doing crazy things and blaming everyone and everything but taking no responsibility for their actions.

        • Sorry, it is not anti Torah to believe that people are born gay. That is how hashem created them. I have seen nowhere in the Torah that a person cannot be born gay. Perhaps some rabbi who knows nothing about biology made that declaration.

          By the way there is a difference between a person who is born gay and someone who wants to engage in a hedonistic lifestyle. That type of person has a choice, but not a genetic gay person.

          • Wrong its anti torah and kefira. There is no biology. Its voddo mader up scinece to conform to your PC nonsense. Our torah clearly challanges that notion. Being born gay means you have no bechira. Its grabage and fake. Cut the PC nonsense. its against our torah. No mainstream gadol would agree to this BS.

            “By the way there is a difference between a person who is born gay and someone who wants to engage in a hedonistic lifestyle. ”

            No difference. People are placed with different tests on life. To some its infidelity and others its gay. Noone is born to sin.

            You are a reform jew. This is such utter stupidty. PC garbage to conform with society and being accepting of all.Just accept them as sinners who have a string yetzer hara. But they are not bron that way. Malraley and nati our torah.

            Got it Phineas?

  2. Netanyahu is so busy being hounded by the corrupt judges that he has no time to concentrate on the back stabbing the Blue & White are doing to their coalition partners, yes “partners”. If the Chareidim leave the coalition, the government falls.

  3. Of course there are people who are born homosexual. They are not allowed to engage in homosexual activity but it doesn’t mean they chose to have such urges. There is a documentary called Trembling Before God which has interviews with Rabbonim who counsel homosexuals and some sent them for conversion therapy. They acknowledge it didn’t work and don’t claim that the people they counsel chose to be like this, in fact, they are doing what they can to change, albeit unsuccessfully.

    • “They acknowledge it didn’t work and don’t claim that the people they counsel chose to be like this”

      Nonsense buying into the liberal PC story. this kefira. Fake rabbonim. Our torah says its your choice finsihed. Its a very tempting chouice but don’t sell me fake rabbonim who twsit our torah. A phieans lie again.

      I don’t want to hear your crooked rabbonim who you dug up. We are mainstream here, not YU PC rabbonim. Show me where R chaim Kaneifsy shlita says it or some mainsream current charedi rav. Maybe R Chztkeil roth? R elyshav zt’L?

      Since Phineas is a pathological lair and will twist some far stretched teshuva, lets repeat this fact. Based on our torah People are NOT born like this. People CHOSE to be like this. Its basic bechira with obviously a nisyon.

      Now listen up pathological lair, Smart people are not dumb. Get it?

      • No, Archy, you’re wrong here, and I think you’re completely misreading Phineas’ post. Whether to _do_ a certain action is a choice, of course. But whether to _have the urge_ to do so is something else entirely. Remember that it’s only tzaddikim who לבם ברשותם; the rest of us do have to struggle with various yetzer haras, as you yourself wrote upthread. If a person has urges for homosexual behavior, but successfully controls them all his life and never engages in activity that is against halachah, why then he’s a גיבור הכובש את יצרו for doing so, even though the urges are still there.

        With that said, I do think that the whole backlash against conversion therapy is misguided. People can be and have been successfully made averse to many different kinds of urges, and it’s wholly illogical to claim that sexual orientation is the one exception.

        • Whether to _do_ a certain action is a choice, of course. But whether to _have the urge_ to do so is something else entirely

          Granted . But I do not think that even the “urge” as you say is inherently something we are born with in our genes and out of our control. Its something that comes to us as the ytezer hara manifests itself and plays with peoples minds. The urge is not what they are born with. It comes as the yetzer hara within decides to mature it coupled with facts on the ground.

          The notion behind being “born” with it is a way to kasher the sin and say its not our fault. Its a way to be able to sin guilt free. One must realize he has an uncontrollable urge. Thats his lifes test. I compare it to infidelity. There is no question that some people have greater urges to commit sins with the oth r gender and it can be a big pull. But will you say he was born with it?

          To be clear we all know that the tavia for zenus is so strong that the torah says to build fences bec a small temptation can get you. Even yosef Hatzadik almost sinned. There is no other avera that requires a fence of yichud like zenus (ein apitrofis). Is there an issue yichud with pork or shrimp? no Yet with the other gender there is.

          Key point zenus has always been a very strong urge and yetzer hara. Strong urges are not what people are “born with”.

          You need to explain what’s the differnce is between zenus with another gender vs same gender zenus

          • Noting you say makes any sense. It is all contradictions. You say all the doctors here don’t know what they are talking about, but when it comes to COVID-19 you now try to make it sound like you actually follow doctors. When in truth you follow no one but your own gut.

            Where does the taaveh for same sex attraction even come from if people are not born that way? What type of environment or actions would drive a person that way? When it is kids in the frum community who grow up in an environment where such a lifestyle is anathema it is beyond ridiculous to say that somehow this is learned or taught behavior.

            But yet, you have numerous comments insulting everyone who does not agree with you, and so far you have not managed to demonstrate any decent education. I mean if you were educated you would probably be employed in a real job that would give you less time to post your nonsense.

          • Oh, I don’t disagree that sometimes people develop such urges later in life, for one reason or another. (I know, for example, a fellow who was married for many years and had children, then decided that he was gay, divorced his wife, abandoned his kids and took up with a man.) The reverse is also true, that people who previously had such urges can change; the current first lady of New York City, for example, has been described in news reports as a “former lesbian.” (Say, one wonders whether in her case “conversion therapy” actually worked!)

            All the same, it can be true in at least some cases that people are born with more of a tendency towards one sex vs. the other. You mention znus with the opposite sex, and of course the same is true there: some people do have a higher sex drive than others, and of those, some of them are going to successfully keep it under control, while others will fail to do so. It is true, then, that being born with such urges can’t and shouldn’t be used as an excuse (at least to the beis din shel mattah), but it’s not against Torah to say that such inborn traits can exist. (See Tanya, ch. 30.)

          • Phineas,

            No it’s not a contradiction . I don’t respect all kinds of science . And will straight out say that because you call it science doesn’t make it holly. It’s not the label I respect .

            Now there are two kinds of science. There is sceince where one can see wither thru technology, out in the open , or basic logic.
            For example , if you social distance and /or wear a mask your chances of obtaining corona are far lower . I think it’s quite sound . You see that and it makes sense .

            Then there is science like evolution or climate change. These are Vodoo science . It’s not something you can see or link . It’s based on theories that want to conform with your pc current state of mind . It’s fake and not real .

            Now the same is true for being “ born” gay . When I had a child , last I knew I couldn’t ask the dr “ hey can you check if the baby is gay “ like once you do your other check ups on the new born infant . You agree that’s absurd bec it just isn’t present .

            Re how do they develop it ? Well societies have different tavos. People catch on to things going on outdoors . Then there are some whom
            Maybe a society thing like low self esteem , bullied , family issues etc .. that manifest itself into one looking for an outlet and it leads to homosexuality.
            And of course the yetzer hara is wiser than us all

            It’s not any different than the desire to commit zenus with the opposite gender . I guess we are “ born with that too” ? After all they tried to destroy that yetzer hara but chickens were bit hatching eggs.

            It’s not entirely clear to me what you gain by saying “ he was born with it “. It may be similar to what I am saying that the yetzer hara decided this should be his life’s test . But it’s no different than one who is tested with infidelity yetzer haras. They each have tests .
            If born with it means , he can’t fight it or even worse , if it means it’s muter and he is permitted and has the green light , or that he can’t control his destiny that’s all anti Torah . It’s kefira and Reform Judaism . Now main stream frum
            Posek will say he can’t control himself . As I repeat it’s exactly like the tavia for zenus with another gender . Both may need Help but it’s not permitted

          • “Dump (sic) people,” what kind of a question is that, “Where does the taaveh for same sex attraction even come from if people are not born that way? What type of environment or actions would drive a person that way?”

            Do you think people are unable to learn new taavos as they go through life? Isn’t it patently obvious that people are affected by their environment, and can learn to like something they didn’t before, or to dislike something that they used to? We don’t bat an eyelash at this when it comes to other areas in life, but somehow sexual attraction is supposed to be different. Why?

            As for “kids in the frum community who grow up in an environment where such a lifestyle is anathema,” some of them have, sadly, been sexually abused, which can cause such changes in psychological makeup. With others it may be that they’re more suggestible by their peers (where those peers themselves may have come by such attraction for any number of reasons); or that they try a certain activity once, and then, having broken down the psychological barrier, want to try it again. There may be as many reasons as there are individuals. But think about it. It’s not a natural human trait to put a stick in your mouth and light it on fire and breathe in the smoke, is it? But how do you think a certain number of children, every year, take up smoking?

          • AH your comments are ridiculous. I also know of a guy who, if I recall, had two daughter and then divorced and took up with a man (I think about 10 or so years ago). But you simply ignore the young people with these desire, so it is not just some guy about 50 who does this, rather it is young people being sent to conversion therapy and then a number of them committed suicide. But let’s not acknowledge that.

            In any case, if something is not in their makeup in how they are created, it is beyond ridiculous to suggest that people develop such a strong desire that they are willing to destroy their whole lives over it. Or if that is the case, then it must be some deep mental issue which causes this which no conversion therapy will help. No matter how you spin it, conversion therapy has been demonstrated to be a disaster that causes people to become suicidal. And regardless of where the Torah stands on SSA I don’t believe it is anything based in the Torah to engage in a therapy that makes people suicidal. Rather seems like something the Yetzer Hara would have put in the minds of some folks who like to claim they are holy.

            As to the other fellow claiming that you can’t check children for being gay, I would not be surprised if in a few years some genetic markers are discovered for it. I know, you can’t see it with your eye so you won’t believe it. Not until people are dying in front of you did you even think that COVID-19 was an issue. Regarding global warming, we can measure CO2 levels over time, global temps, currents, etc so really don’t understand your confusion here. Is your mind to small to tackle a big problem?

          • Hey mr dumb people are not smart ,

            We see more evidence that you are a coward spammer under Phineas climate change and guts born gay .

            Re climate change sure the c2 levels we all agree that’s high . We also can see temps are rising . It’s a number . However we have not seen nor proven that the two are connected nor that it’s won’t reverse. It’s very similar to evolution Which we know is a flat lie

            Re born gay , you would not be surprised if there is such a test ? Baloney . There will Hever be such a test . Even you don’t believe that . No one is so foolish . Re your question, if people are not born that way why would they do such crazy things like destroying their family life for it ? That’s silly to. How many people destroy their family life with infidelity ? Don’t we all know a famous wealthy activist who was shunned from our community a few years ago for it ? The guy was in the top of the world . Honored wherever he went , names on buildings etc .. Was he born that way too? Why would he destroy his glorious life ? It’s because the desire for zenus defies logic . It’s so strong . That’s why so many fences are needed .

            Let’s not get stuck in the secular pc baloney that gays are born that way . It’s kefira an anti Torah . It’s also ludicrous

          • “Dump (sic) people,” perhaps your comments are addressed to someone else, because they have very little or nothing to do with what I actually wrote. For example, I have not “ignored young people with the desire,” but said quite explicitly that some of them may have an inborn tendency or susceptibility to it, others may have developed it in early childhood as a result of sexual abuse or the like, and still others develop it during adolescence as a result of peer pressure or similar.

            As for conversion therapy: given that, as I said, rates of suicide are already higher in this cohort, the onus is on you to show that conversion therapy triggered their suicides. Correlation is not causation, you know.

          • Where in the Torah does it say that people have a choice whether to be attracted to men?
            Calling it ‘liberal pc garbage’ doesn’t mean it is not in the Torah. It is possible a person is born with this ta’avah, just like people are born with a ta’avah for married women. That ta’avah does not mean a person inevitably will sin. It just means he needs to deal with it.
            But according to you, this law is a good thing. No therapy is necessary because there is no issue to heal, they are all lying about things

      • “Educated Archy,” You’re so great at playing this clownish stereotypical character that I didn’t realize the whole thing was satirical. Brilliantly done!

  4. Educated archy is correct
    No one is born gay or a murderer or a thief. Some people may be prone to murder but they need to channel their drive to becoming a shochet or mohel or doctor. Men who have a problem should marry women who have the same problem. Problem solved.

  5. Even ultra-liberal NYC repealed its ban on conversion therapy after being challenged in court on it by a Lubavitcher therapist.

    Israel should learn from NYC, and not infringe on people’s right to seek treatment.

  6. Look folk the point I am making is clear.

    Zenus is a terrible temptation. I don’t see why one is “born” with a tavia for another gender vs same gender? Both are tremendous nesyonas. I don’t judge anyone even those that commit infidelity because the nissoyan is so great. But all will admit its a sin.

    The idea of saying one is ” born with it” is a PC way of kashering it up a without saying the word mutar.

    • Nope. That some people use it that way doesn’t invalidate the concept, any more than the misuse of any object or fact in Hashem’s world puts it off-limits. ?יאבד עולמו מפני השוטים

    • Mr Archy.
      Here is the list of states that have banned Conversion Therapy.Conversion therapy has been banned in California, Oregon, Illinois, Vermont, New Jersey, New Mexico, Connecticut, Nevada, Rhode Island, Washington, Maryland, New Hampshire, Hawaii, Delaware, New York, Massachusetts, Colorado, Maine, and Washington DC., per American Counseling Association. This does not count the over 70 municipalities that have banned it.

  7. @Educated Archy
    Just a few points.
    Everyone knows that Gay acts are prohibited, that is not debatable.
    Why you’re so adamant that one cannot be born inherently with gay tendencies is very unclear, we all know that there are people that develop it later in life and that would most likely be self taught (whether it is willfully or not, it can be either way)
    But there does seem to be very strong evidence of people that are born with these tendencies, in the DSM4 it was diagnosed as Gender Identity Disorder, it was taken out in the recent DSM because of the PC culture they were pressured to remove it …this is when a male or female feel like they belong to the opposite gender, which many people think is a totally separate issue, but the root of the whole entire gay issue is all linked to Gender Identity Disorder, either them feeling like the opposite gender hence them being attracted to the same gender…which is why gay men will have female tendencies …etc ..this is way to long of a discussion for a comment…but my point is, there is absolutely nothing in halacha that says a person can’t be born with inherent charachter flaws, whether or not he is actually a Ba’al Bechirah or not obviously is dependant on if it’s in his control or not, I’m sure MOST gay ppl will absolutely be called baalei Bechirah…are there a select few individuals that somehow have no control (something along the lines of an Impulse Control Disorder like trichotillomania or pyromaniacs etc..) and it is a serious mental disorder that’s possible as well…none of this goes against mainstream halacha/hashkafa…

    • 1) Find me one leading posk that agrees with you
      2) Why is it against our torah? Because its kefira to say that hashem in the physical sense would create someone with a physical alignment that directly ties them to a greater need or urge to do an evrioa. Yes you have some crookedway to twist that and say the person still has a bechira. But its a direct conflict to bechira of one’s physical body is built to do an averia. Sorry its baloney and PC
      3) Now please do explain this bogus science how one “is born” to be gay. Can I tell the dr to check my infant and see if they were born “gay”? Like a hearing check , can they do a “gay check”?You realize how retarded it sounds outside your PC world
      4) Enlighten me , can one “be born” as a zona with the other gender as well? Doesn’t some of the science there also say that different people have different hormones that trigger? Whats the difference between same sex or different sex?
      5) Now I think we all agree that defintley one’s yetzer hara can latch on to him and it manifests differently for everyone. Its also one’s life struggle and the hardest nisyaon to tackle. So the line between “born with it” vs “yetzer hara” latching on to it and building that beast within is a very fine line. But that fine line is clear . Its not a science and its kefira to say the ebishter “creates ” people with chemicals etc.. that physically lead them to want to sin. No such thing. Sinning is all in the mind and spirtual sense. This is our torah clealry and anything dffernet is out right kefira

      • Mr Archy.
        A “Gay check?” That is so sad.
        Your post makes me so upset and sad.
        You really have no clue about your “Gay check” idea.
        I know you were only joking, but why?

        • Well Phineas, if the Dr checked my new born and found that based on “Science” he was born with “gay genes” or chemicals etc.. I as a parent would like to know that. We need to be sesntive to our child’s needs. So do you suggest I ask my child’s pediatric to test for that? If he was “born” like that , its gotto be somewhere?

          Explain the logic to me please

      • Archy, every tendency that a person is born with can be used for kedushah or for its opposite. The notion that this would mean that “one’s physical body is built to do an aveira” is itself against what the Torah says. (See, for example, Rambam, Hilchos De’os 1:2, יש מהן דעות שהן לאדם מתחילת ברייתו.)

        Consider the story in the Gemara (Berachos 10a) about the sons of Chizkiyahu who even as children had an attraction to avodah zarah. That wasn’t something they learned from their father the tzaddik, after all. Presumably it was inborn (and after all, Chizkiyahu himself foresaw it with ruach hakodesh). In the event, they both fell through (although Menashe later did teshuvah), but it wasn’t inevitable that this should happen – it’s an example of כל הגדול מחברו יצרו גדול הימנו, and if they had successfully resisted these inborn urges (or, better still, redireced them towards kedushah ends), they would have been among the great heroes of Jewish history.

        • Correct its an inherent “ruach” that lives inside them but there is no Physical aliment that triggers them. The einshter may decide to test someone like that.

          And it makes all the distinction in the world despite its fine line.

          I should add that despite your taina about menasha I would think thats an extreme example that the eibshter programmed his mind to such extremes. I don;t think thats the typical. But perhaps you are correct.

          Key point based on your logic, some people get a ruach for gay zenus and some stam zenus. Its not like one is more inherently built in someone than the other. We seem to be more tolerant and forgiving of gay people but ostracize people who commit adultery infidelity etc… The two are very much on the same pedsital. Both got stuck with strong yetzer hara’s. Both have this test of a life time. Both are a sin

          • Could you ask your doctor what test can be preformed on a child to see if they are LGBTQ?
            (In case you do not know what that means, it means: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Queer.) But because you are “educated” you already knew that.

          • So we’re getting somewhere now. A tendency can be inborn without it showing up in one’s genes (and hence not subject to the kind of “test” that you suggested upthread). It can be in the person’s neshamah (a “ruach,” as you’re calling it); it can be epigenetic; a combination of genetics and environment; or something else. But we can recognize that these possibilities exist (as well as the possibility that such tendencies can develop during early childhood, because of abuse or similar, as I noted earlier), while still – and on this I agree with you – decrying attempts to use that argument to “normalize” such tendencies and behaviors, let alone to celebrate them.

          • CudahyKid

            yes I did know that. Now can I ask my pediatrician if they can test my kids for LGBT? I think its only fair. Why force my child to be a girl and wear a skirt when they really want to wear pants. My 3 yr old is crying she wants to be the shabbos taty tommorow and not the shabbos mommy. I would not want to impose on her , if she was born a Transy.

            Do you get how ridiculous you sound?

          • @AH I still have hard time believing that ebishter mamesh makes that tendency deep in one neshama from birth vs a yetzer hara just engendering that.

            But I thing we do at least agree on two things,
            1) The desire to be gay is no different than the nisoyan for any other “zenus” like averia. Same gender vs opposite gender yetzer hara works the same way
            2) its not a physical thing that can be proven scientifically.

          • Archy, בהדי כבשי דרחמנא למה לך: ultimately, neither you or I know why or how Hashem does things.

            I agree on your point 1, but (mostly) disagree on your point 2. First of all, however a person comes by such tendencies and desires (i.e., whether inborn or developed later), their brain gets wired accordingly, and that would be detectable scientifically, such as by an examination of their brainwaves when exposed to same-sex vs. opposite-sex stimuli. Second, if you’re prepared to grant my point that some people are born with such tendencies (or at least with a greater susceptibility to them), then within that population there will be a subset in whom there’s some associated genetic or epigenetic variation that can be observed scientifically (and that eventually might be shown to make the person more prone to be receptive to same-sex stimuli), while in others there might not be (and hence a “gay test” would never be completely accurate).

          • I don’t think people are either “born ” like that or even with a tednecy. Its not assigned at birth. Its assigned when the eibshter later in life decides to manifest the yetzer hara within him as he reaches adulthood. Now could that affect the wires on your brain maybe?

            All this is getting way too deep. The point is when liberals say “born that way”, they mean to excuse it and say people are not responsible for their deeds and that its beyond their contol. This is whats kefira. If they mean some deep torah like you then OK its not kefira but if they mean to say that its acceptable and these guys can’t be held accountable thats kefira. And just like noone says infidelty is an illness form boirth lets not say that about this either

      • @EducatedArchy
        Let me try to make a point that was’nt mentioned yet.
        You mention how you don’t see a difference between znus urges vs gay urges as they arr both assur and they’re both a yetzer horah which must be fought.
        You’re right, BUT the ENTIRE frum world is structured around circumventing the znus yetzer hora!!
        We go to separate schools from a young age, we don’t play with opposite sexes, shuls have mechitzas, so we go to extreme lengths just to keep ourselves separated from a very young age, only because we all know how tough it can be to overcome those urges, and so HOPEFULLY if we are separated we can overcome that challenge.
        But imagine we had Co-Ed schools and mixed shuls and boys and girls played together we all know how near impossible it would be for a frum boy or girl to never have lapse in judgement and succumb to their urges..The gemara in brachos (Possibly 32A) says clearly משל לבן..הרחיצו, סכו, והשיבו על פתח של זונות…”מה יעשה אותו בן שלא יחטא???”
        So for a gay boy to go to Yeshivah and sit in the Bai’s medrash and dorms all day every day alongside his friends whom he’s sexually attracted too, is exponentially harder than a straight boy not having znus…we live separated, yet they LIVE AMONGST TEMPTATION ALL DAY EVERY DAY.
        Think about that, every time he’s learning or davening in shul and doing dvorim shebikdusha it can be like us trying to learn a sugya on a packed beach with woman in bikinis all over…can you imagine what that’s like??
        I can’t. Al Tudin Es Chavercha Ad Shetagia limkomo.
        (Hope this gives just a bit more of a perspective of what they deal with.)

  8. I could vouch for myself that conversion therapy does work, it worked for me, they are all liberals that want to discredit anything that works against them and against their agenda, it has nothing to do with science and doctor, they are also humans they have their own desires, politics and agendas, what they want the scientific study should proof that is going to be the result, as you have seen lately with covid-19, all study’s were made to proof Trump wrong, staring from hydroxychloriquin not only doesn’t work what is dangerous and so on… (Till the truth of course came out that it does work), the same doctors that don’t let you open your shuls and schools cuz covid-19 the same doctors claim that going out for protesting is ok, and they openly said cuz the BLM movement is a greater benefit then getting sick and dying from covid-19, so yes it is politics.

  9. Archy as a supporter of the Blue and White party you cant have it both ways, Mrs Yankelovich is also a supporter of this legislation. Why anyone calls her Chareidi is beyond me, If she is “Chareidi” she should immediately leave Blue and White.

  10. Even if there was something actually biologically different in the genetic makeup of a “gay” person, what difference does that make? We have Torah on that too. There is the androginus or tumtum…
    Are they allowed to marry?
    What about a krus shifcha? Is he allowed to marry?
    So these are ACTUAL BIOLOGICAL issues, that were no fault of their own, yet they are forbidden to marry.
    What about a mamzer, r”l. Or a Ger Mitzri. Also, for the most part, not allowed to marry. Certainly not advisable for the mamzer to have children.
    Or shall we make it a bit more practical? What about, lo aleinu, somebody is horribly disfigured, and cannot get married because of it. Or very very sick, r”l. Or more pressing, just a regular person who cannot find a spouse.
    All of the above are biological/genetic/religious/societal/etc reasons why someone cannot be intimate with another person.
    So how do these people make it through life with normal urges and desires: for partnership, a family, etc.
    The answer? With Hashem’s help. BUT NOT THROUGH TRANSGRESSING THE TORAH!
    These tests are awful for a person. We shouldn’t ever know such difficulties, but there are plenty of situations in Jewish history that we hope to never experience again. These people might very well be going through their own personal Auschwitz. But there is a Torah for people in Auschwitz, and there is a Torah for everyone, everywhere.

    My point: even if you could find all the evidence in the world that these people were born with something biological that makes them desire these things, it doesn’t change the laws of our holy Torah.

    And for those chiming in with their feelings and “science”, the job of the Jew is to preserve the Law of Sinai. Both the Oral and Written Torah. And just like we are governed by G-d what we can eat, we are governed (perhaps even more so) on what relationships we are allowed to engage in.

    If you disagree, then ok, but you can’t ask the protectors of the Torah to trade it in.

    • i assume that’s the answer you’d give your son if he told he’s gay, has tried to change and can’t, and believes he must choose between a life of loneliness, with no partner and no family inside your community or a life with a partner and a family outside it?

      I assume you’d tell him “choose decades of loneliness, but don’t worry, HKBH will reward you”?

      • Well, you might phrase it more gently and sensitively, but yes, what else should a Jew committed to Torah and mitzvos say? That’s what mesiras nefesh is, as with our ancestors, who went through fire and water and unimaginable tortures rather than violate Hashem’s will.

        We also might consider what this means, “has tried to change and cannot.” Has he actually gotten married to a woman and tried to connect with her physically and emotionally? Or is he thinking in advance that he won’t be able to do so? There’s a big difference there, you know.

        Also, you might ask why this necessarily means “a life of loneliness.” Is there anything preventing him from having platonic friends and confidants of the same sex?

  11. People so vehemently opposed to the idea that gays are born that way are probably repressed homosexuals. Why would HKB”H cause people to be born with their brains wired to be attracted davka to the same gender and not the opposite? I don’t know. I don’t know why the world looks like it is billions of years old either, maybe when Mashiach comes we’ll find out. But we do know that everything Hashem does is just. Point is you don’t know the mind of God to say he would never create anyone like that when he clearly has. People have landed on the moon, time and space are relative, and most gays are born that way.

    Now we all have latent homosexual feelings to some degree, even if very mild compared to our hetero orientation, it is possible that in some people these feelings are exaggerated due to molestation, trauma, depression, etc. but lemaaseh the evidence is clear that there is a small percentage of people whose brains are just wired to be gay, and that there have been people like that throughout recorded history.

    • Your first sentence alone is vile, and taints the rest of your post. If you have a problem with people’s opinion about how other people’s brains are wired, fine, but then look in the mirror: who made you G-d to divine what other people are thinking, and whether they’re “repressed”?

  12. Here are the facts.
    No one is born gay just as no one is born a thief or murderer. It’s free choice. Otherwise the Torah is not real. Yes there are people born with certain drives like killer instincts. Such people should channel their drive to become a mohel,schochet or Surgean.
    Conversion Theraphy is a good thing. Gays have a high suicide rate due to their evil choice. It has nothing to do with Theraphy. Science today in many cases like educated archy points out is voodo science. In Nazi germany their scientist and doctors believed Jews were subhuman. So much for the so called doctors.


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